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Google Update Bourbon Part 3

     
8:35 pm on May 27, 2005 (gmt 0)

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My whole site has a new cache date of May 25th. Maybe once these other sites around me get recached, I won't hold such an honorable top position. But at least Google has found my pages worthy to sit in the Search again.:) It seems strange to look at the stats and see Google in there, after 6 months of just seeing Yahoo and MSN referrals.

My website has plenty of outbound links, but they are on relevant pages. The problem my site has always had, was a lack of "inbound links." I got tired of searching for people to link to me (with all the spammy sites around) and gave up. So my pages have acquired some links naturally I guess(and I'll bet I still don't have more than 30 inbound links for the whole site) Still have a PR4, which I've had since it disappeared in Nov.

[edited by: Brett_Tabke at 8:54 pm (utc) on May 27, 2005]

8:36 pm on June 1, 2005 (gmt 0)

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MHes

>But if Google sees people clicking the scrapers in the organic results and then clicking the adsense on a scraper site...... the evidence is that the user is finding the site they want AND google is making money indirectly from the organic results.

Win Win <

Agree. And I had posted previously to that effect.

However better is removing the scrapers from top 20 positions by Bourbon update. Allowing the "good" AdSense publishers instead.

You end with:

- Surfer find the content he was looking for on the organic listings. I.e satisified Google user.

- Surfer click on AdSense after finishing reading the content of the page.

AdSense publisher win. Advertiser win. Google win.

Win-Win-Win

8:45 pm on June 1, 2005 (gmt 0)

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AdSense publisher win. Advertiser win. Google win.

Win-Win-Win

And if your "good adsense site" has to pay for adwords where a scraper site would never do, then it's a

Scraper win, Advertiser Win, Google Win From Scraper Adwords, Google Win From Your Adwords.

Win-Win-Win-Win....

8:51 pm on June 1, 2005 (gmt 0)

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WE used to be the ONLY Adsense publisher in our rather large niche in the top 20. We were in top #15 for 3+ years. We are a PR6 site. G persued US for months to get us to sign up as a publisher. Last month one of our huge corporate competitors with a PR7 Finally started being an adsense publisher. Now we're #95. Still questioning the adsense = A FACTOR in being dumped theory?
I'm guessing they're singling out the most lucrative/productive adsense publisher sites in each category (whether scraper or content producer) and then intentionally degrading all the competition. So you're either THE top-dog adsense publisher or ranked as just another rat with the PR1's.
Test it out in your own categories and see.
8:59 pm on June 1, 2005 (gmt 0)

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Who do you think has a higher CTR for the same search category, a scraper site or a "quality" site?
9:03 pm on June 1, 2005 (gmt 0)

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For 2 word search terms, pages which relate to just one of those terms but contain the other term somewhere are beating pages which relate to the two terms (ignoring all other factors).

Wow, This exactly describes what I've seen. I think it's an important key to figuring out what has been changed in this algo.

9:09 pm on June 1, 2005 (gmt 0)

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AOL My Business Card

site.aol.co.uk

I'm missing something in a search when google returns 17,200,000 results and an aol business card is in the mix.. is this all i need to do to finish in the top .. ok then im an seo expert.. glad its a hobby for me

Searching from the USA

[edited by: hereforinfo at 9:11 pm (utc) on June 1, 2005]

9:09 pm on June 1, 2005 (gmt 0)

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Who do you think has a higher CTR for the same search category, a scraper site or a "quality" site?

Scraper sites by far... Scrapers don't want people hanging around their site. They are made so that people come and go just as quickly as they came via a google ad.

Dayo_UK

9:10 pm on June 1, 2005 (gmt 0)

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Ok, this thread aint half detoriated.

There are plenty of threads regarding Adsense and scrapers. But this is a Google update thread - an update which has not even been completed yet.

But hey - it is normally the way. Anyone seen any worthwhile changes in the DCs recently that are worth talking about?

annej - that has been the way for a while - if you rank really really well for one keyword it is not to hard to rank for a keyword associated (even if remotely) to that keyword.

9:10 pm on June 1, 2005 (gmt 0)

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"Who do you think has a higher CTR for the same search category, a scraper site or a "quality" site?"

Why a scraper site of course, by a long shot, because it applies more specifically to a narrow topic and noone can find what they want ON the page, so they click off to somewhere else via the Adsense links.

But if Adsense IS being used in this update, I would say it is more based on EARNINGS (i.e. volume), not CTR. That is why some very busy sites, which started in #1,2,3 with adsense are still ranking with the scrapers. While others with adsense who ranked well, but aren't quite as BUSY (profitable) got dumped. Or I COULD be entirely wrong... it's just a theory. Although from what I've read on other threads, it seems to be a FACT, that MOST of those dumped DO run Adsense ads.

It's all about (Googles) money.

"Anyone seen any worthwhile changes in the DCs recently that are worth talking about? "

I noticed the total search results amounts on some DCs went back to where they were a few days ago.

[edited by: MikeNoLastName at 9:26 pm (utc) on June 1, 2005]

9:26 pm on June 1, 2005 (gmt 0)

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I'm looking forward to seeing some movement.

For 2-3 days my keywords are stuck with 2 different sets of results across datacenters. Both are remarkable for their large proportion of directory page pollution.

I wonder when that "0.5" level of improvement that GG mentioned (is that like being half pregnant?) is going to be initiated, and what the effects will be. It should be fun to watch - I hope my popcorn won't be stale by the time it gets going!

9:27 pm on June 1, 2005 (gmt 0)

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Now that this thread has wandered far off topic and we're about to enter a new phase of the update, mightn't it be a good time for "Google Update Bourbon Part 4"?

Dayo_UK

9:34 pm on June 1, 2005 (gmt 0)

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helleborine

Wow - thanks getting back on topic.

Well 0.5 followed by a 1.0 - as mentioned earlier we are only just over 50% throught this update.

This update is certainly the longest one I have known about.

For the record - does seem static(ish) at the moment - bit of movement for some sites.

Any luck with your tech forum.

EFV

Interesting thought about sub-domains (eg. www) and main domains (non-www) being counted as duplicates? Traffic holding up?

9:35 pm on June 1, 2005 (gmt 0)

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Brett, Has the thread been set up for
Googleguy to pose Q and A as he requested?

Thanks

9:36 pm on June 1, 2005 (gmt 0)

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Maybe we should call the continuation thread Bourbon Update Part 3.5!

schmoker

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init funny updates are always during big sales times...Alegra December>xmas burbon June>summer....who's talking about better algo's ,better serps ,better quality and flying pigs,its all smell like fishy and $$$$$$$$$$$,if you check the top 5 money make serps are a monopoly of a handful of websites,not to mention urls here.
10:07 pm on June 1, 2005 (gmt 0)

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okay people...you are missing my point with all the "win win win" scenaros

My point is google is wandering away from its original objective with its organic serps if it allows scraper directories to play such a big part in its overall scheme.

These "win win win" situations may also be accomplished by good adsense publishers.

Please consider the fact that scraper directories are violating copyright laws. In this case, the ends does not justify the means. Unless the major search engines clean this mess up, it is only a matter of time that this issue will be decided in the courts...maybe in a State that allows joint and several liability lawsuits which will expose Google contingent liability.

It is not only a matter of principal...it is a matter of law. There has much been said of google penalizing websites that link to "bad neighborhoods". IMO if any SE allows this kind of activity, they themselves are a "bad neighborhood"

I am all for adsense publishers increasing traffic to my website, however I do take offense when I run my website thru copyscape and find scores of copyright infringements. There is a right way and a wrong way to do it. By my definition, "bad adsense publishers" are lazy and just looking for a short-cut to a quick buck. Definitely not something to be proud of or brag about.

Any publisher worth their salt would agree with me.

Everybody, please forgive me that I have gotten this thread off-topic. However, I do believe (or hope) that Bourbon has much to do with this resolving this problem.

10:13 pm on June 1, 2005 (gmt 0)

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Folks

Would you be kind to translate what GG meant by:

- Here's the advice that I'd give now: take a break from checking ranks for several more days.

Translation:

- Bourbon includes something like 3.5 improvements in search quality, and I believe that only a couple are out so far.

Translation:

- The 0.5 will go out in a day or so, and the last major change should roll out over the next week or so.

Translation:

- Then there will still be some minor changes after that as well.

Translation:

10:23 pm on June 1, 2005 (gmt 0)

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My interpretation:

The storm is far from over.

10:27 pm on June 1, 2005 (gmt 0)

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> Here's the advice that I'd give now: take a break from checking ranks for several more days.
makes sense since we can't do much anyway. But in a few days maybe they'll try to refine the algo. Until then, it's the same.

> Bourbon includes something like 3.5 improvements in search quality, and I believe that only a couple are out so far.
This doesn't sound good, if he meant it literally. Those "couple" of improvments caused these threads; a few more will just add more people /sites to the list :)

> The 0.5 will go out in a day or so, and the last major change should roll out over the next week or so.
They'll another small thing from their patent on the 3rd and two more a week later.

> Then there will still be some minor changes after that as well.
Tweaking..

10:27 pm on June 1, 2005 (gmt 0)

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The storm is far from over.

I just hope the second half of this storm gets me out of the sandbox.

10:36 pm on June 1, 2005 (gmt 0)

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My point is google is wandering away from its original objective with its organic serps if it allows scraper directories to play such a big part in its overall scheme.

There's no reason to believe that Google is "allowing" scraper directories to clutter its SERPs. The challenge for Google is how to downrank or filter scraper pages without whacking legitimate pages.

I wish people would spend less time questioning Google's motives and more time questioning Google's methods.

10:38 pm on June 1, 2005 (gmt 0)

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On the optimistic side - things can only get better from here (for me). Is it a law of nature that Google visitor count can't go negative?
10:39 pm on June 1, 2005 (gmt 0)

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Well todays UK results are a vast improvement on the previous few days. Still some data centres not updated with it.

I just hope any final adjustments dont take us back to the results we had over the weekend and the start of this week, they were plain awful. They can stay like this imo massive improvement.

This is one heck of a long update and only 4 or 5/7s (by now) of the way done!

Good luck all

10:45 pm on June 1, 2005 (gmt 0)

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walkman

> Then there will still be some minor changes after that as well.
Tweaking.. <

But that means that we shall never hear The Fat Lady singing until we reach the next major update (:(

10:59 pm on June 1, 2005 (gmt 0)

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My Translation:

- Here's the advice that I'd give now: take a break from checking ranks for several more days.

Translation: You're driving yourself crazy trying to figure it out, and I don't have any answers yet.

- Bourbon includes something like 3.5 improvements in search quality, and I believe that only a couple are out so far.

Translation: I've been soaking in the sun, and I'm not sure what's going on yet.

- The 0.5 will go out in a day or so, and the last major change should roll out over the next week or so.

Translation: More changes are on the way... you can count on it.

- Then there will still be some minor changes after that as well.

Translation: It will never settle down.

10:59 pm on June 1, 2005 (gmt 0)

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sailorjwd, "Is it a law of nature that Google visitor count can't go negative?"

I think that depends on on your stats system not having a programming 101 problem in it ;).

And with that I invoke rule 4.

11:27 pm on June 1, 2005 (gmt 0)

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Cognac, nice take. LMAO.

The Internet Held Hostage - Day 13. Have a good night.

11:32 pm on June 1, 2005 (gmt 0)

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Just a thought on cleaning up adsense. How about taking the sites that are being routinely blocked by adwords advertisers? Put up a reasonable number, like 3 different advertisers block a site, it gets inspected, if it doesn't meet certain standards, they're out and all their other sites get inspected and could be tossed as well. Then kick them down in the serps, too.

The death penalty + banishment to hell.

12:23 am on June 2, 2005 (gmt 0)

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EFV...

I wish people would spend less time questioning Google's motives and more time questioning Google's methods.

If you read my entire discourse in this subject you should clearly gleen that I am explicitly seeking an understanding of the method by which google would dispose of the scraper problem. Not suggesting a motivation for which google would encourage it.

12:55 am on June 2, 2005 (gmt 0)

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Google just swung through the areas I work in this afternoon, that seemed to go largely untouched, since the beginning of Bourbon. All I can say is double WOW. I now see what people are fully talking about, maybe worse. Except for the top ten it looks like a turnover everywhere. The area is full of a lot of junk. Iíve pretty much gone untouched since Florida but this seems possibly worse. I may finally have to go out of business.

It tickles me GG tells people to take a break. Iím glad somebodyís getting paid to take a break. Isn't it always the people who have no worries telling you not to worry. Well what can I say Google and Yahoo seem intent on squeezing every conceivable penny they can out of webmasters.

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