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>> I am in total *PAIN* and totally confused.. <<
As many webmasters do. You have been betrayed.
You have been encouraged to think that if you focus on content, play clean, get honest links, then all will be fine. Well the truth is.... it isn't fine at all, is it? Those who have played 'honestly' (Google's definition) have been treated the same as those who haven't. A large subset of both groups have been caught in a big net and thrown away.
Nice.
>> I can't believe Google wants this kind of irrelevant search results. <<
Well, unless they are stupid they can see the lower quality for themselves. In some areas it is so clear it is embarressing.
The issue is do they actually care? I don't think they do, or they would surely have swapped back to the old index pronto.
The winners are the big sites, whose deep deep pages, usually full of only semi-related stuff, have risen to the top. Some searches show this better than others.
Accident? Think about it. These guys have deep pockets and large investment budgets. Quite handy to have these onside and aware of the commercial clout of Google positioning come IPO time....
That may seem an ugly theory, but really, the results are so clearly inferior there just has to be some reason for Google to keep them. I'm certainly open to other suggestions though.
>> Results for keyword-keyword look VERY good in my industry. The top 10 are sites that SHOULD be there <<
That's more or less the case. I suspect the reason for the dash phenomina is that dashes in Google do usually mean spaces. As this is a deliberate pre-meditated filter, the programmer forgot that little fact, and the filter doesn't apply when the dash is there.
This is actually a bad week for the search engine industry, and especially for Google. Someone mentioned earlier that Google grew on the back of mutual respect between themselves and webmasters. I actually used to term this the 'social contract' (meaning that those who played broadly by the Google guidelnes would generally benefit in the long run, a win-win). Well.... that mutual respect is in large part disappearing here isn't it... the contract is being torn up.
The consequences of that in the long term are just as serious for Google as they are for webmasters. Certainly, the SEO industry will change for the worse as a result.
Let's say Google wants to limit the accessibility to certain types of content, such as adult and pharma.
Let's say that, to do this, thet make sure that user types "keyword keyword" instead of keyword keyword, just to be "sure" that this is what they are looking for...
I am wondering how many people who have seen their website disappear, but reappearing under "keyword keyword" searches, run adult or pharma websites...?
Nice job Google!
Have you ever seen SERPs with the home page is indented from an interior page........ seeing some of this now........
I've seen instances of this as well.
try searching it as "keyword-keyword" rather than "keyword keyword".
Not sure if it really is a window into anything important - but when I check all the 2 word keyphrases that I was #1 for over 6 months time using the "-" the serps resemble what I would expect to see. All the sites that were on the front page are back and ranking in an expected order.
It also almost exactly matches:
allinanchor: kw1 kw2
Does this mean anything? Who knows - surely not me.
I find the conspiracy theories a little tuff to swallow - at least at this point. But All google has to do is come out and say, we have made a large change to the algo or some filters are missing, so just hold tight. Wich is it?
[edited by: KevinC at 9:59 pm (utc) on Nov. 17, 2003]
But, my "surf safely" listing is a full five positions before I show up in the SERPS.
Now that is an irrelevant result. "Surf safely" has nothing to do with widgets, but by virtue of the link TO my site they rate higher?
WBF
<edit>Heck, its not even a link to my current site, but an ald site that is redirected!</edit>
[edited by: willybfriendly at 10:06 pm (utc) on Nov. 17, 2003]
Simon.
But i notice that results are differents from where your are connected.
And I realize that results on Google are differents if the location of the client who is making the request is located in Europe, Asia, Us or Africa.
To be sure I used differents proxy in the world, and I always get the same results on www-in or other datacenters if i'm connected via an European proxy (Spain, Sweeden, France or Italy) but results are differents from a proxy in US or Canada.
Does anybody have notice this?
How many of yours use a proxy located in a different continent to check their position?
And the big question (for me ;-) ) Why a such difference in ranking (I'm 1st from Europe and only 25 from US)
Kind regards
>>The winners are the big sites, whose deep deep pages, usually full of only semi-related stuff, have risen to the top. Some searches show this better than others.<<
Could not agree with you more, except adding that having allies at DMOZ to give you ‘deep links’ helps as well.
What’s happened now is that in Google's admirable pioneering fashion, they have tried to make themselves *SEO Proof* (what could be another glorious notch in their belt) and shot themselves in the foot, because now all the:
1) Content Rich
2) Clean & Well built
3) Original
4) User-friendly
or in other words SEO'd sites are out of the index, leaving Google with a pile of irrelevant trash that was before now buried below 5 pages of decent SERPS.
Same here - my site is back on the front page again instead of missing from the index.
Okay, so how can we make people add a hyphen every time they search? Anyone? ;)
GoogleGuy - can you flick the "don't need a hyphen" switch...thanks! :)
don't believe that Google have ever been able to keep Spam out of the SERPS. What they have been outstanding at in the past is ranking and producing so many relevant results on top of the Spam sites, they created the illusion that they are *Spam proof*I concur!
What’s happened now is that in Google's admirable pioneering fashion, they have tried to make themselves *SEO Proof* (what could be another glorious notch in their belt) and shot themselves in the foot, because now all the:1) Content Rich
2) Clean & Well built
3) Original
4) User-friendlyor in other words SEO'd sites are out of the index, leaving Google with a pile of irrelevant trash that was before now buried below 5 pages of decent SERPS.
As we all go into decipher mode - Googlebot crawls on!
I see Googlebot on many sites... crawling away, still.
GoogleGuy - You adding me to page one accross the board yet? :0)~
~ Hollyweird
nutsandbolts -that post made my day :)
[edited by: plumsauce at 10:25 pm (utc) on Nov. 17, 2003]
Domonic update.....
"The search Results will be better"
Florida update.....
jd
Just do a search for 'search engine' (Google's #5) and 'search-engine' (the first place I spot Google is #176)... so somehow I don't think we'll be seeing the '-' results take over ;)
(the above searches are without quotes obviously)
I completely disappeared for some keywords that I was previously number 1 for.
I became number 1 for some keywords that I was previously number 50 for.
Some keywords remained unchanged.
---------
I still find different results for one keyword throughout the day on www-gv
-------
My Conclusion:
Google is still in flux. Be patient.
A good Google New Years Resolution should be "We will stay stable from now on".
Wow. That's freaky. Trying this myself...I am nowhere to be found when I search for "keyword1 Keyword2" which my site is optimized for.
I then searched on "keyword1-keyword2" and I am #2....also near the top of allinanchor and allintext. So why on earth are many of us having trouble with a "blank" between keywords when a simple hyphen makes all the difference in the world?
It now makes me wonder if my on-site anchor text links (with keywords) had a hyphen between words, where would I be in the SERPs with a search using hyphens?
"Those whom God wishes to destroy, he first deprives of their senses."
- Euripides (Greek tragedian, c. 480-406 BCE)
Isn't Google the neon god that people around here pray to? All I can say is that my sites have maintained their good positions. So far...
I don't know if the offer is kosher for TOS, but maybe if people have a site that had no problems, whatsoever, to compare things too, it might help. There is no promo drop factor here.... no one who checks the site will suddenly give us money, or decide to do what we do. We have the bandwidth available and it's not like I'm showing it off.. it's rather crude compared to most of you.
The PR5 index page, (just a cover really, as though the site were a book), has 25 backlinks listed, 2 dmoz, 2 Google directory, and yahoo directory recently added 'though not showing yet. The site is very simple, online for about 14 months, good PR and serps from the start, optimized only as far as making sure variations of keywords are in the text, proper titles, and internal links that shuffle the PR where I want it. It has a lot of content, and gets about 100 - 200 unique ip visitors a day, (not counting AOL proxies). It is visited by every bot you can think of, constantly. It was mostly coded with Wordpad and has been run through validators. Post-florida, it is still #1 for the obvious kw's, and as always, still gets traffic from unexpected kw searches due to having a lot of text spread through the site. They're not highly competitive kw's in the slightest, but as I said, there was essentially no change this update for us. It might serve as a benchmark for other .org sites that are after similiar serps.
If a mod decides this isn't appropriate, no problem, I won't complain.
Posted by GoogleGuy
Hmm. Some of the other senior-ish people could answer this too, but keyword1-keyword2 on Google just does a phrase search along the lines of searching for "keyword1 keyword2". It limits results to pages that have that exact phrase on the page, or possibly in anchors.
Sorry about this (don`t take it personally) ;) but IMO this could be incorrect.
The following example shows an anomaly in the above statement unless I'm missing something
;)
I have just completed a search of one targeted key phrase I watch closely on a daily basis.
Search widget-widget-widget-widget (very relevant to my industry) returns 1810 results with my own site at no 3
Same search but "widget widget widget widget" returns 1820 results with my site nowhere to be seen.
Standard search but widget widget widget widget returns 949,000 results with my site nowhere to be seen, (was in the top 10) and many quality, competitors, relevant sites nowhere either and non relevant sites all over the serps.
Totally different to over one week ago.
EW
[edited by: EarWig at 11:18 pm (utc) on Nov. 17, 2003]
For one search, "mytown real estate", I'm not seeing spam, just absurd results - a non-profit site about rabbits comes up on the first page. After I stop laughing, I'll go back to the lake (this time with a fishing pole) and check again in a few days. No way this can be anywhere near done...
GG, why is it that I have lost so many backlinks...the ones I am most curious about are my links from the Yahoo Directory. My Yahoo Directory links are all gone. Yet for most of my competitors, there Yahoo Directory links are still showing. Will backlinks start to fill in like in the Esmerelda update?
Also, word1-word2 is drastically lower quality than the other way where I am looking. If Google is to apply another filter, it should be to move those word1-word2 results to come into compliance with the "word1 word2" results. Some here might not like that, but it is plain as day in the eare that I am looking at the trivial sites do much better right now in the hyphen searches.
==
GG, good start on the virulent cancer family. Looks like about a 60% death rate so far (close to 100% in some areas, but untouched in others). I'll send some more feedback later today.
Hmm. Some of the other senior-ish people could answer this too, but keyword1-keyword2 on Google just does a phrase search along the lines of searching for "keyword1 keyword2". It limits results to pages that have that exact phrase on the page, or possibly in anchors.
Wouldn't those be the most relevant?
but the thing is... it's still there, unlike a lot of you
I think Donna means the reason it is still there, is because you didn't have to apply any heavy back link / keyword anchor text techniques in the first place, due to the lack of heavy competition.
I think it's safe to assume that the people hardest hit are running competitive money making sites, not information sites.
3 days ago thye would have been :)
I think it's safe to assume that the people hardest hit are running competitive money making sites, not information sites.
For sure. But that goes to show that it might be SEO techniques doing it, rather than a general problem with Google.
Anyway, I'll put my helmet back on and be quiet. ;-)
Like I have said before I have probably have around 200 different keywords and phrases that have to be tied into every state.
There is message board spam in the top positions some states its even all 8 positions.
Keyword linking at the bottom of the pages like 10 times with the keyword is pulling up hard and total non revelant sites are every where on all of my searches.
GG has been very supportive and he has opened up his mail to us to look at these results.
Just be happy your not in my keyword category.
Message board spam can't be beat right now.
And the idiots who are doing this are unleashing a force of it.
Anyone that wants to see a horror show just sticky me it will make you feel better ;)
James_Dale
> I think this hyphen-thing is gonna get fixed.
Sir, you write that with beautiful ambiguity.
Sorry GoogleGuy, but the senior members who already know about this one seem pretty slow to back you up for once. :-)
steveb:
> Also, word1-word2 is drastically lower quality than the other way where I am looking.
I don't know if the - thing is intentional or not, but either way someone at Google is going to be very happy reading that statement. Of course some people will be upset, and with a multi-billion page index a lot of babies get thrown out with the bathwater, but there's been some serious SERP cleaning for a while now. Unlike the old days, these filters don't remove listings, they shift them around and people have been very slow to spot them.
synergy, caveman, well done. You do deserve a prize of some kind for your generosity in posting that info.
wanna_learn
> Might be a pre-christmas Gift to Blackhats ;-)
Or, if they meant it to slip out, a message.
If it's still there 24 hours after synergy let the cat out of the bag, I think we can call it a warning.
60% likelihood: this party's over soon.
Now, I'm nowhere to be found for:
keyword1 keyword2
BUT, I'm #2 for:
keyword1-keyword2
I think there is some merit to this hyphen anomoly. I think the 'dance' isn't over. I am confident of being #2 for 'keyword1 keyword2' when its all over
Third observation anchor text is not a problem as far as the relevancy of the page is excellent.
Absolutely not true - I have maintained many rankings and lost many also. All of my links are extemely relevant(I'm one of the guys that believes in themes) and industry specific - also mostly one-way links.
I also have a site that is a kw1-kw2.com domain with artificial links that has stayed put.
Hard to explain whats going on, just gotta wait and see what happens.
At risk of giving Google too much credit and ideas for their next algo tweak (which I'm becoming more and more convinced that forum 3 and 78 are totally responsible for)...
It looks as though the well SEO'd *older* sites have held better than the newer sites, suggesting that Google have worked out what is and what isn't an unatural time frame to collect backward links in...
e.g.
Site A has been around 5 years and has 250 BL's
Site B has been around 1 year and has 400 BL's
therefore site B is guilty of *forcing a better page rank*
Can anyone confirm that sites worst hit are e.g. under 2 years old with quite a few backward links?
I would beg to differ. I see across a wide range of site types results that dont make sense at all. I am fine for some kws and nuked for others. No way to make sense of this and attribute these results to a few seo tactics here or there. This is very much like Dom/Esm where some were happy and some were not, but most felt it wasnt the best that Google could deliver.
<appealing to google's pride/>
But,
When I search for "keyword1 keyword2 keyword3" my #1 ranking, (for index page) before "Florida", is now #335 and Google directory description at index page is missing.
...and somebody said "Don't worry, this is temporary..."
I know or I think I know?
when you say people are getting penalised for heavy backlinks with keywords in anchor text, you mean they dropped in rankings, their backlinks disappeared or both?
My case is both.
both essentially, I've gone months without seeing backward links that I know I have, all from PR4's and above, but what I meant primarily by "penalised" was dropped from the SERPS.
>Wait and see...
Now there's a plan!
Fine to speak in terms of 'what if this sticks' and 'what it means if it does' but for now, pointing out the issues and discussing them is enough for me. Premature to panic (as others have said). I panicked last fall and again this past spring/summer, so I wont fall into that trap again. Instead, I gulp hard once per day and try to get my work done. I also set my check-on-Google-quality-alarm for 8am Wed morning.
Then I'll start screaming ;-)
p.s. I do sympathize with those who wonder why G can't do this on WWW2 and WWW3. They would still get the feedback they're looking for. And the signal that all is done would be clear when the results move to WWW. I'm obviously too simple-minded.
If that was the case why would we know see a listing for an expired domain name come up in the top ten for a search term that brings up over 4.6 million in results? There is lots of junk coming up top when you would think that google would have more "quality" sites to choose from in a very competitive area?
Maybe I should just buy the expired name to get a top 10?
Subway made the very good point that my example is an information site that will naturally show up at the top of the serps for its niche, if there is decent content/info. Commercial is different and I feel for you guys...
I should have qualified my example more clearly that it was meant for .org/info type sites.
Why have you forsaken us...? We have followed your wisdom and have carried out your wishes... we have not placed any other search engine before you, we have neither built idols nor spoken thine name in vain... We have sacrificed and spread the word of your power from land to land... Even now your mighty power grows.... Why have thee chastised the faithfull, cast us down, laid us low? Why have you turned your glorious visage from us...?!
Speak thy will that we may obey! Thine own cammandments lay in ruins at thy feet...!
We beseach you! Lift us on high that we may once again revel in thine glory! Let us once again know thy grace....!
it means that my site will be listed in the first 10 spots?
One of the wisest remarks so far ;)
a) My techno-shy better half let out a yelp while browsing this evening. "What's up?" I asked. She was looking at Yahoo SERPS. "The order is different!" she said. "One of my favourite sites is usually here..." She pointed to the fifth listing on the screen "...but now it's not there!".
Conclusions:
1) Even members of the entirely non-technical browsing public have noticed something is up... and it is interfering with browsing habits they are accustomed to following.
2) As I suspected, I'm not the only one who uses a given search term and the resulting listings as a proxy Bookmark. (It's not something you go around asking people, so I never really had this confirmed before...)
b) About three times as many visitors as normal accessed my site today through Bookmarks.
Unsubstantiated Hypothesis:
Those visitors were unsuccessful in finding my site by their usual method (ie. using Google or Yahoo! SERPS as a proxy Bookmark) and so, if and when they eventually found my site, they bookmarked it and returned later in the day using their browser Bookmark.
I'm not convinced for a moment that the SERPS will stay in their current order, but at least for the sake of Google's (and Yahoo!'s... and AOL's... and Alexa's) public image I think they should have gone through the motions on www1, www2 and www3, instead of getting changed in public.
[edited by: ronin at 12:37 am (utc) on Nov. 18, 2003]
OK - I admit I have been hit hard in florida both for my companies own rankings and our clients but I saw what happened after Esmeralda. Things were bad for a while, a lot of spam was filtered and we finally came back in the top 10. Have this thread again in 4-5 days time if you are still seeing more of the same silly directory filled results - y'all should take a few days out and should quit being so paranoid! :)
