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I can see everyone is still hammering out conspiracy theories and trying to find which server will give the correct results.
So to answer all questions regarding searches with - or + and ~ why not visit the Google Advanced search pages.
[google.com ]
As for search results,
Backlinks have not yet been filtered in, this alone is a sign that the update has not finished.
Take it easy guys
:)
[edited by: jddux at 4:47 pm (utc) on Nov. 18, 2003]
Olllee!.
SEOMariachi
Is the *old* Google Directory back? It seems to me to be so...
DerekH
I realise you say "if they reach a certain threshold" but I personally think if there was such a threshold then it would need to be set very very high.
Hey, it's just a hypothesis. I'm not saying it's correct. :-)
But I do think Google has enough collective IQ at the 'plex to devise algorithms that look for artificial patterns based on natural language analysis, statistical probability, and whatever else its Ph.D.'s were writing their theses on before they were recruited by Google. We've been told repeatedly that Google takes more than 100 factors into account when determining search rank, and it isn't completely unreasonable to speculate that, as time goes by and Google's resident brainiacs put their heads together, Google may be getting better and better at comparing those factors to identify (and compensate for) what it considers to be "artificial" SEO. Whether that's actually happening is anybody's guess.
Or it could be that we all should chill out for a bit longer and let google do their job.
We can all study the effects once its finished and adapt afterwards in a better frame of mind.
Whatever you do now won't fix it any quicker could make it worse so just carry on regardless and check back tomorrow.
www-va : 216.239.37.100
If you modify your host file, -va seems to show some solid PR changes for the several dozen sites I've reviewed so far here in the U.S.
-It's just difficult to tell if will hold, or even if PR means anything in the current environment.
Steve
What google is trying to do is eliminate SEO. Scrap your lame black hat/what hat talk. It doesnt matter to google. Fundamentaly, if you are manipulating the SERPS, they dont want it, period. How can you make money off of PPC when people can manipulate the results?
Google's Webmaster guidelines make it clear that it doesn't like anything "artificial." I don't think it's fair to say that Google wants to eliminate SEO, because it's in Google's own interests for Web sites to have descriptive titles, headlines, anchor text, etc. But it's also in Google's interests to discourage or at least weaken the influence of "aggressive SEO" that seeks to manipulate Google's search results. (By "aggressive SEO," I refer to techniques that are practiced by those who try to "exploit holes in Google's algorithm," to use a phrase that has appeared more than once in this forum.)
The motivation for discouraging "aggressive SEO" has nothing to do with selling PPC ads; it's simply the need to protect the quality of Google's core product: search results. Google's success was built on quality search results, and the company would be foolish to let SEO consultants and other outsiders take control of its SERPs.
are you sure? dont you think it will change
well
teach me on this one please :)
216.239.37.100 toolbarqueries.google.com
Depending on your M$ system, the hosts file will be in:
c:\windows\system32\drivers\etc\hosts OR
c:\winnt\system32\drivers\etc\hosts
kw1 kw2: site is gone (used to be #2)
allinanchor:kw1 kw2: #2
allintext:kw1 kw2: #3
allintitle:kw1 kw2: #2
kw1-kw2: #1
allinanchor:kw1-kw2: #1
allintext:kw1-kw2: #1
allintitle:kw1-kw2: #1
Penalty for having these two words next to each other too often? It would seem stupid to do that (penalizing sites that only sell blue widgets, and no red widgets and green widgets, as other still-listed sites do), but that would fit this observation.
(usually they are not very high PR becuase of all outbound links)Not how it works. Outbound links have no effect of the pr of a page. The number of outbound links effects how much pr is doled out by each link.
how gay would that be
Anyone care to share their thoughts.
Laurenz
I'm sure this was the factor. If so, we recently disallowed the robots
and are removing the external links that may have caused the decrease
in ranking.
Is there any hope that we can get back up there?
[edited by: fashezee at 6:33 pm (utc) on Nov. 18, 2003]
Is this right?
It looks as though the well SEO'd *older* sites have held better than the newer sites, suggesting that Google have worked out what is and what isn't an unatural time frame to collect backward links in...
e.g.
Site A has been around 5 years and has 250 BL's
Site B has been around 1 year and has 400 BL's
therefore site B is guilty of *forcing a better page rank*
Can anyone confirm that sites worst hit are e.g. under 2 years old with quite a few backward links?
"
I have confirmed this. This seems illogical because if the newer site (Site B) has alot of quality content and high PR internal pages (PR > 3-4), Google may count these pages count as backlinks. As a results, the newer site should perform better in the SERPs. However this doesn't seem to be the case.
Any suggestions or ideas?
we see a lot of authority sites doing well in multiple cat's so that alone is no issue...but there seems to be merit in the link text concern, so if what you are saying is that some authority sites are being hurt by link text too tightly optimized (perhaps in conjunction with other signs of over-SEO on the same text?), then yes we see that also in several categories, with no site disproving the theory yet.
this seems to me an extension of trends that emerged in Dom/Es...
what still baffles on this end tho is that just discounting those internal backlinks with tight anchor text doesn't explain the hit we're seeing on the site that is hurting...the hit would be explained by some sort of penalty, but I still doubt the penalty part as opposed to just discouting importance. which leaves me back to the point of confusion..
Sorry another theory out the window.
Has nothing to do with how many links where gathered over a couple years etc.
Google has not finished updating!
One of my sites which is older and has less links has been havily dropped.
Another site that is well SEO with plenty of links is doing well.
So their is no substance in anything until Google has finished updating.
The top blogs in the world on some highly technical topics have vanished from the SERPS during this update. PR seems to not have changed.
These are the "go-to" sites for these topics so no one competent in those fields really needs google to find them but it seems very peculiar that they are missing completely.
You may be on to something.
It looks as though the well SEO'd *older* sites have held better than the newer sites, suggesting that Google have worked out what is and what isn't an unatural time frame to collect backward links in...
I think this is a definate and HUGE possibility. Even though some people advertise and get these links. Time sensitive issues are just not relevant.
Regarding your message #450. I have a seemingly identical senario as to what you are describing and I would agree 100%.
As I said in an earlier post. I know a site that is 8 months old and has had a huge linking campaign going on for the last 6 months. They are now #1 for the keyword they are targeting.
I also have a keyword-keyword site that isn't do well for it's main keyword. It went from page 1 to 10.
However, I believe keyword sites are more straightforward than other sites and in Google's guidelines they recommend making a straightforward site. I'd be shocked if the keyword sites don't come back.
-Squared
For once my sites are little affected by the changes... but ya know there is still one enormous problem with the way Google ranks pages which is so illogical I can't believe it's still the same.. and here it is... for the top ranking sites for my four word phrases in the most competitive areas, the top ten more often than not...
DO NOT CONTAIN ALL THE KEYWORDS!
But they do have a gazillion inbounds and some distant linking connection to some of the words.
Result is, search for 'brown widget gizmo tops' and you get 'unrelatedcolour widget gizmo tops' in 60% of top tens when 'brown' is highly competed for in unrelated phrases.
Bottom line? Don't worry about page content too much, just get links from as many sites as possible wether related or not, so long as they aren't banned link farms ie this is why it goes so wrong when a word or two are so competed for, Google deals with one word at a time and doesn't see the big picture, ie a phrase! So instead of dealing with 'red widget' as a description it deals with it as two 'red' and 'widget'. It does this to the extent that it is possible for a site to do so well for 'red', that it need not contain 'widget' at all!
Summary - the whole concept sucks big time. Cure = SET THE ALGO SO THE PAGE LINKED TO MUST CONTAIN ALL, YES 'ALL' THE KEYWORDS!
HOW ©?¬©?ç? ¥¨†ø^¥ø§¥ ^ø¥ difficult can that be??!
XO() Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaargh
Thanks
David
In most of my categories I watch, all the major sites have been pushed back just to be replaced by junk directory sites selling ppc or affiliate programs, sometimes more than 20 in a row.
The only thing I don´t understand, why google has to do these updates public all the time, but hopefully this time we won´t have to wait again 2 month, until we get back to normal and relevant results.
Not how it works. Outbound links have no effect of the pr of a page. The number of outbound links effects how much pr is doled out by each link.
On a site-wide basis outgoing links hurt the overall amount of pagerank flowing through a site (the more outgoing links you have the less PR is sent through your internal links). So while they do not directly lower the PR of the page they are on, indirectly it is a mathematical certainty that they do.
Finally somebody posting with something I could empathize with! :D
For example, -gv is now showing similar results I have achieved prior to nov.15. In addition, it is showing updated pr's for some of my sites.
I am leaning toward -gv as a newer index. One of my sites was a pr2 for several months because I hadn't devoted any time to it. Then, this past month, I have been spending ALOT of time building solid incoming links and voila, my site is showing a pr6 in -gv, while all others still show a pr2.
Can someone else check out -gv and see what you get too?
But my site was and still is no 1 for my second targeted keyword.
But has disappeared from the top 500 results for my main target keyword and I was at no 9.
If I have done something wrong and am being punished why only punish me for 1 keyword I am now totally lost .
Ginger Tom
there may be some more data to incorporate tomorrow or so
Has it happened? Still to happen?
A clients site has 352000 listings for their keywords
We were #1 now?
They were #6 now #6
Both build & SEO'd the same way.
From my analyis, NO. One of my sites just jumped a few positions up on -in on page 1 for a specific keyword. My guess is the new index is still "cooking" and not complete. I also notice the index isn't moving off -in, making me think the dance still has a way to go.
People have been talking on this thread about sites being "penalized".
But I think that the real story is that SEO tricks that had previously been boosting a site to a top position are no longer giving a bonus, so that site drops out of the top.
It's not a "penalty", it's just the site returning to it's natural place in the pecking order minus the SEO tricks.
Google Guy said way back in this thread that hyphenated domain names weren't being "penalized" But he didn't say that the algorithms hadn't changed such that the bonus they were previously getting with respect to keywords that they targetted hadn't been reduced or eliminated. (Personally, I think it's wrong go give any kind of credit at all to a domain name--especially considering that everyone knows that keyword1-keyword2.com type domains are usually spam.)
Whatever the outcome, even if it all goes back to where it was (which it won't), by playing games in public, Google is doing itself no good at all.
So, GG, don't you think it makes more sense to do all the experimentation on www2, www3, etc without trashing a megaton of established on-line business while you get it right?
Google may have never given a bonus for domain name. Often other sites will link to keyword1-keyword2.com with the domain name as anchor text. Thus, it may not be the bonus is from the domain name, but from getting optimized anchor text.
First the Merchant Services freaks out because we are selling more then they want us too, so now we have to get 5 new merchant accounts(not a bad idea I would too if you knew what we just went through), and now this.
This is Black November!
That quote is B**@~@, keyword-keyword.com are common place domains for most companies now, its the keyword-keyword-keyword-keyword.com that are spam.
get your'e facts right!
Here is a theory that supports this. Certain algo elements have yet to be factored in. The above could be explained by the current -in results being based mostly upon on page factors, and PR and/or anchor text have not yet been added.
That quote is B**@~@, keyword-keyword.com are common place domains for most companies now, its the keyword-keyword-keyword-keyword.com that are spam.get your'e facts right!
My Spam keywordstuffed1-Keywordstuffed2-Keywordstuffed3-Keywordstuffed4.com site is killing my www.nameofsiteno keywords.com site at this point in juncture!
>get your'e facts right!
Good point. Single hyphen domains are ALL kinds of common in non-spam sites. It is only when the # of keywords get large is it usually spam.
They have 10+ datacenters they just ____ themseleves by doing this public.
Like a zillion others, I use Google a lot to find information. Anything : technical problem, piece of news, finding suppliers ...
I have now stopped because the results are cr*p.
I'm not seeing that at all. For everything I've checked, results are at least as good as they were before the update, and they may be better. And I'm not just talking about categories where my pages rank #1. :-)
Exactly europeforvisitors. I've checked numerous info-type SERPs where my sites have never ranked. All of them looked good to me. Leading me to suspect that where there are problems, they must be in certain heavily spammed areas.
I have a look at some adult categories and they almost look like they are non-adult... a mix of un-optimized websites, directory categories, old news pages about a sex-related subject etc.
My guess is that adult and other "questionable" categories were intentionally harmed. Looks better before doing an IPO.
>My guess is that adult and other "questionable" categories were intentionally harmed. Looks better before doing an IPO.
Or, someone at Google was tweaking the spam filters. The amount of spam in adult categories tends to be huge.
I am going to up my adwords spending again to get our listings back on track with the free search...!
Google is aiming to make its results not so entirely irrelevant that it appears definitely broken, but off-target enough that the public begins to lose faith and start turning to other methods or start talking about 'the end of Google'.
Just before Christmas is a good time to do this, because, given the season, I imagine search engine queries rocket.
Then, 6 weeks before the IPO, Google fire all up the engines and slam the switches back on.
BOOM
The February 2004 newspapers start raving: Google is BACK and it's the best search engine ever! We might not have noticed just _how good_ it was if it had just trundled on as normal, but after two months of wrestling with slightly off-topic SERPS, having perfectly relevant ones now seems like a dream!
Investor confidence soars... Google sells for an even higher price than could have been dreamt of in late 2003!
