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Update Dominic - Part 9

Will it ever settle?



6:12 am on May 14, 2003 (gmt 0)

WebmasterWorld Senior Member rfgdxm1 is a WebmasterWorld Top Contributor of All Time 10+ Year Member

....Continued from here [webmasterworld.com]

I just checked all 9 datacenters. Only -sj and -fi have the new index.


4:26 pm on May 14, 2003 (gmt 0)

WebmasterWorld Senior Member trillianjedi is a WebmasterWorld Top Contributor of All Time 10+ Year Member

i have www showing -fi data




4:28 pm on May 14, 2003 (gmt 0)

Has anything different actually happened since May 2nd?


4:33 pm on May 14, 2003 (gmt 0)

WebmasterWorld Senior Member trillianjedi is a WebmasterWorld Top Contributor of All Time 10+ Year Member

Has anything different actually happened since May 2nd?

Not as far as I can tell apart from a few freshbot additions to the main index (i.e. not sj or fi) and aol taking on the fi index (and possible the sj one too, but we're unclear on that).



4:39 pm on May 14, 2003 (gmt 0)

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I am just trying to keep an eye on the changes


4:49 pm on May 14, 2003 (gmt 0)

10+ Year Member

Has anything different actually happened since May 2nd?

The only difference I see is that this forum, for the first time in the years I've been coming here, has not looked as professional and smart as it always has.

How Googleguy can post (numerous times) about how backlinks and spam filters will be added slowly over time, and then there will be 3000 posts from people asking why there is so much spam and where their backlinks are is just beyond me. I can't even begin to think about the 500 "I see sj on www, no, I see fi on www, no, I see sj on fi, no, I see fi on sj, no I see altavista on sj......" posts.

This thread scares me, not as an SEO or webmaster, but as a human being. =]


4:51 pm on May 14, 2003 (gmt 0)

10+ Year Member

because we can easily tell in our case, -fi results are currently showing up in CA.... we'll see how long it lasts.

West of Willamette

3:56 pm on May 14, 2003 (gmt 0)

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I woke up to many new pages from my sites in www (though not in www2 or 3). Most of the new pages had a fresh date of 5/13. Certainly I'm happy. However, none of my sites have seen the Googlebot since much after the end of the deep crawl (late April). Since last seeing Googlebot, my sites have been hammered by known bots (ia_archiver, iaea), previously unknown bots (Xao), and a large number of unnamed bots from previously unseen IP addresses that would crawl a site in much the same manner either Deepbot or Freshbot would.

A few days ago, I traced the IP address of one of these bots and it was one of Roadrunners. If memory serves me well, don't they use Google's results on their site? I didn't give that fact much significance until today.

2 Theories based upon what I see.

1)The Fresh Pages aren't really fresh but are from late April's Deepcrawl and are just being added to the index.
2)The Fresh Pages are fresh and were crawled by bots other than Googlebot.

Intuitively, it would make sense for Google to have crawl partners given the ever expanding size of the web and Google's commitment to providing the most up to date, fresh results. I've yet to see anyone mention this, so I thought I would throw this theory out to people more expert than I.

P.S. I'm not normally a conspiracy theorist but I was formerly a Roadrunner customer and was their customer when I created all the sites in question (though they don't host any of the sites in question). A Whois check on that aforementioned IP address a few days ago showed the Roadrunner office in a nearby suburb to where I used to live. I now live out of the area in Comcast country. Geographical targeting anyone?


4:55 pm on May 14, 2003 (gmt 0)

WebmasterWorld Senior Member ciml is a WebmasterWorld Top Contributor of All Time 10+ Year Member

I don't think it's a conspiracy.

If pages from the deep crawl are being added in real time, then this confirms the view of some people about the sj index is the start of the rolling update. I suggest that you follow the update threads, or just wait until people know what's been happening.


4:58 pm on May 14, 2003 (gmt 0)

10+ Year Member

-sj is the same as -fi with the only difference that fi has some more data.


4:59 pm on May 14, 2003 (gmt 0)


My Fresh Tags of 13th are definetly as a result of a fresh crawl on 13th!

West of Willamette

5:03 pm on May 14, 2003 (gmt 0)

10+ Year Member

Ciml--Conspiracy Theory shouldn't have been taken literally...meant to be tounge in cheek.

I still don't know how I got fresh pages without a recent Googlebot crawl from the "identified" Googlebot.


5:09 pm on May 14, 2003 (gmt 0)

<I wouldn't draw huge distinctions between sj and fi. When I say "I expect the sj index to spread to other data centers," that could be sj or fi.>

...hmmm. Some of my PR friends might call that shift(?) from "-sj" to "-sj or -fi" spin... ;-)

GG, what some of us are saying, which I'm sure you're hearing, is that we currently SEE substantial distinctions between -fi and -sj. That's as of 10:10 PST.

Now, I'll say again for background that we're up slightly in one, down slightly in the other...and that's across MANY sites...overall -sj and -fi, were they to rotate, would be a slight positive for us as far as traffic goes (Chiyo, you can believe that or not). But also, my users access G data, so G's quality matters to me beyond occasional shifts in our own traffic...

What I don't like about -fi is that for the 10 categories we watch (some we're in, some we're going to be in, and some we'll never be in), -fi is showing noticeably worse results. Go look at a few variations of searches with 'toys' in them and you'll probably see what I mean; specifically, more spam in -fi, and some sites that are clearly #1 all the sudden deposed (NOT US).

Now, I know that 10 categories is NOT close to a statistically significant sample, and hopefully your "extensive testing" says that overall these new algos are an improvement. It's just that such is not the case for -fi, in the specific categories we look at.

(Note to Perfection) I wouldn't even be commenting on this - on the assumption that these new SERP's will change, as GG repeatedly stressed - except for GG's occasional posts that seem to imply that Google is happy with -sj and -fi as is, notwithstanding the backlinks, filters, etc. that are still missing in action. That would seem to be supported by the fact that these SERP's are now showing up at partner sites. Until these SERP's went live into AOL and Yahoo, I wasn't concerned, just providing feedback. Now, I'm concerned.

So, either the two data centers in question have results that will tend to converge once the other factors are added in (which may be why GG "doesn't see much of a difference between the two"), or differences will remain, in which case I sure hope that things move towards the -sj direction. MY customers have to deal with G's results too, and right now, in the 10 categories we watch, for the first time ever FAST, is returning better quality results than Google in 7 of the 10. NG.

Meanwhile, I of course doubt that Google is too worried about the opinions of the Wackmaster, but you just never know ... ;-)


5:14 pm on May 14, 2003 (gmt 0)

BTW, someone said a few pages ago (I think) that Yahoo applies their own filters to the Google results. Can anyone else confirm that?

I know that Y changes the site descriptions to match their own, and that they also lose the sub-listings (which I like), but I was not under the impression that the ranking order ever changed...


4:45 pm on May 14, 2003 (gmt 0)

10+ Year Member

Ok my site has been in the top 10 up until a few months agos when some spam hot the top 10 and moved me to #13, which was bad, but I can live with it until they are gone.

Anyway, for the search term I always check I'm usually #14, on the -sj index I was #4 for a few days a week ago, then I dropped to #11 where it is now. The problem is, on the www and the -fi index, my site is no where to be found for this search term. Allinurl, and mysite.com still bring up about the same number of results as always. PR is still 4.

Here are the locations from each datacenter:
fi- Gone! (checked all the way to 600)
www- Gone!
www2- #11
www3- #11

Should I send an email to google seeing if some penalty or something was invoked, or just wait another day and see if another index makes its way to www? It is frustrating because all the datacenters but 1 have me #11-#13. We don't have crosslinking, hidden text, cloaking, etc.


[edited by: ciml at 3:44 pm (utc) on May 15, 2003]


4:48 pm on May 14, 2003 (gmt 0)

10+ Year Member

We're in the same boat on one of our sites. It still ranks #1 for many secondary search phrases but moved from #5 (to #2 on -sj) to <zap> gone on -fi. Just a basic site that's dead on for the search phrase and uses no tricks of any kind.


5:32 pm on May 14, 2003 (gmt 0)

Hmmmm. I was hoping to stay in the more general realm of the OVERALL QUALITY of -sj and -fi, and glean any input on differences.

The problem with individual sites going up and down is that we (in here) don't know if a given webmaster's site has been gunned down for spam reasons (intentional or otherwise).

To me at least, that's different from seeing some well established, well-known sites, with thousands of backlinks and thousands of pages, dropping from #1 to substantially less than that, in -fi. (Again, not ours.)

GG, maybe you can be just a tad clearer on whether these two data sets could be expected to converge soon, without giving away precious secrets regarding algo details? Nope...probably not.


5:35 pm on May 14, 2003 (gmt 0)

WebmasterWorld Senior Member ciml is a WebmasterWorld Top Contributor of All Time 10+ Year Member

Terry, I think it's too early to make conclusions over whether you've been penalised. In the past, Fresh listings have come and gone, the current behaviour isn't clear yet.

West of Willamette, feel free to read that part of my post as tounge in cheek too. :-)


5:46 pm on May 14, 2003 (gmt 0)

10+ Year Member

I have only seen new sites from the April crawl on -sj, Not on -fi. However,I dont see the new backlinks from April's crawl on either one.


5:57 pm on May 14, 2003 (gmt 0)

10+ Year Member

here is a thought.

maybe they are incorporating a diversity system of results , using different indices and results at various times of the day or month or whatever to bring more diversity to search results.

of course, if the searcher couldn't control the diversity, that problably wouldn't be a good thing.

so maybe:
they are in the early stages of eventually offering more advanced search options to include diversity options on multiple, differently tuned, databases available to search through?

oh boy, imagine that. than optimization efforts would really be fun. haha


6:01 pm on May 14, 2003 (gmt 0)

10+ Year Member

GG at one time was pretty cleary having a bent towards the -sj index....

lately however he seems to be hedging his bets with either -sj/-fi or combination of the two....



6:10 pm on May 14, 2003 (gmt 0)

10+ Year Member

And now he's suggesting ex as well so we can all go even further round the twist.....

Maybe they don't know exactly what they're doing?


6:13 pm on May 14, 2003 (gmt 0)

10+ Year Member

Be sure they know ;)


6:26 pm on May 14, 2003 (gmt 0)

10+ Year Member

From another thread [webmasterworld.com]:

GoogleGuy: There's a lot of backlinks on the web. It will take some time to bring them all in. To clarify a couple things:
- it helps to think of sj and fi as similar. It's better conceptually to think of them as cut from the same cloth.
- chiyo, every data center has different machine characteristics. So similar/identical indices might look slightly different at different data centers. This goes back to the point above. Don't think of it as if we build a different index with a different theme for different customers. Our partners get the same scoring/data that we use. That said, the global index that we build can emphasize different things more, such as topicality or more diverse file types.
So sj/fi are different in several ways. I would expect that difference to spread to other data centers. Then things will resume moving forward.


GoogleGuy: trillianjedi, I'm saying that sj and fi are of a different nature than previous indices, and that I expect that different nature to spread to more data centers (ex, anyone?
I've been using "sj" to denote this different nature, but I appreciate the chance to clarify.


6:28 pm on May 14, 2003 (gmt 0)

10+ Year Member

no need. saw it. and googleguy is hedging his bets.

"clarifying". hahaha


6:31 pm on May 14, 2003 (gmt 0)

10+ Year Member

there are probably some here who have shown alot of insight in their posts. and some that are just way off the mark,

i'd like to know who's lead to follow. who;s the real genius here, please stand up, please stand up. hehe

in a few cases, GG has decided he can point out a good observation or two, and nix a real bad one or two. fair enough.


6:44 pm on May 14, 2003 (gmt 0)

Its been said a few times, but I think it needs reiterating.

Google doesn't really want SEO's to be able to fully understand what is going on, chaos etc is really in their best interests.

By driving us all nuts, speculating this and speculating that, Google wins.

I think of Google as a fabulous babe being chased by a 1000 or so adorant suitors, all dying to know what makes her tick, so that they may win her charms and affections ;)

They make blind dates with her, she fails to show, or wears a different dress than what she says, or gives elaborate reasons why she couldn't be where she said.

Her suitors are lovesick fools, so just cant let go of their dream, even though many of them suspect that they haven't a chance in hell of getting her where they want her. Every once in a while she used to stop for them, do a little dance and blow them a kiss or two, she'd even hang around a while and let them think that they'd gotten their wicked way.

Perhaps she's having an identity crisis, perhaps she doesn't really know what she wants anymore, perhaps too many of her suitors have gotten too close for comfort.

She's certainly not playing the game the way it used to be played, thats for sure!


6:50 pm on May 14, 2003 (gmt 0)

10+ Year Member

onionrep, this is beautiful! This is pure romance. :p


6:59 pm on May 14, 2003 (gmt 0)


Re: Yahoo filtering sites.

In My Experience they do seem to filter out some sites (Not as likely to see two sites from the same domain on a search) - and other filters.

Pretty sure they do not change the ranking order though.

Note In My Experience though - if you look at other older threads (possible in the Yahoo forums) you will see that other people have had Experiences also :)


7:07 pm on May 14, 2003 (gmt 0)

10+ Year Member

Nice analogy, onionrep.

She's certainly not playing the game the way it used to be played

Maybe she was bored a little bit?

Or she's trying to play a somewhat more advanced game?

I'm fascinated ;)


7:16 pm on May 14, 2003 (gmt 0)

10+ Year Member

Does anyone know what happened to the tread I saw this morning where someone had a list of googleguys posts? I think this would really benefit us if we could just keep it at top of this forum ... People don't know where to find his threads since there are many topics with 16 pages.. I found it useful and hope it wasn't removed...
This 302 message thread spans 11 pages: 302

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