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Isn't "miss" a young lady?
If you listen to the P. C. lobby, 'miss' only refers to a 'deferred hit'. All ladies, I am told, are to be referred to as 'Ms.', whatever that is. Personally I'd rather use red text on a green background than offer Ms. as an option on a form.
Actually, you are totally misreading the text if you think the goat that because the goat was not sacrificed but "set loose into the desert that it was somehow "off the hook" and free of danger.
somehow "off the hook" and free of dangerattributing comments to me which I actually didn't make and then refuting them is convoluted to say the least ..
(In fact, it is scarcely surprising that people should think of THIS goat as 'carrying the sins' of others more than the goat slain on the altar, for it is THIS goat that the text explicitly makes exactly that point about!)
celui du sacrifice de substitution, Lévitique IV:22-26, propose un sacrifice d'expiation propre au péché d'un chef, lequel rejaillit sur l'ensemble de la communauté :Si c'est un chef qui a péché, en faisant involontairement contre l'un des commandements de l'Éternel, son Dieu, des choses qui ne doivent point se faire et en se rendant ainsi coupable, et qu'il vienne à découvrir le péché qu'il a commis, il offrira en sacrifice un bouc mâle sans défaut. Il posera sa main sur la tête du bouc, qu'il égorgera dans le lieu où l'on égorge les holocaustes devant l'Éternel. C'est un sacrifice d'expiation. Le sacrificateur prendra avec son doigt du sang de la victime expiatoire, il en mettra sur les cornes de l'autel des holocaustes, et il répandra le sang au pied de l'autel des holocaustes. Il brûlera toute la graisse sur l'autel, comme la graisse du sacrifice d'actions de grâces. C'est ainsi que le sacrificateur fera pour ce chef l'expiation de son péché, et il lui sera pardonné.
And I charge for translation of long passages ..
Suffice it to say that
sans défautdoes not mean "without blame" ..but means .with no physical defects ..the sacrificed goat is killed in place of he who is at fault ...the "emissaire" walks free ..
Strangely or ( maybe not so strangely ) enough in english.. bouc emissaire has been corrupted to "beau comissar" ..even further from the original meaning ;)..( what would a handsome communist party political manager have to do with it? )
However much as I find a certain amusement in this sort of discussion ..I feel it would be better if we let the thread return to it's original topic as it is somewhat futile for the two of us to be discussing any particular point ..You are of course at perfect liberty to decide that I am missunderstanding the examples which I present .. But for myself , your refutations would carry more weight if I knew you could actually read in the original french and understand them,the selfsame examples which I present ..I would not wish to tell a german speaker that they are missunderstanding a german text if I did not speak german myself ..that would be at best ..silly :)
[edited by: Leosghost at 12:23 pm (utc) on Jan. 10, 2006]
Women ( married or otherwise ) here are still required for many online ( and other ) forms ..to give their fathers name and or husbands name ..( in order for the forms to be legally acceptable .."valeur juridique"
Again we have a phrase which translates as "what do you call yourself " ..stupid idea ..I call myself me or I ..
You are of course at perfect liberty to decide that I am missunderstanding the examples which I present
You did it again ;)
I once worked in a drawing office and the senior draughtsman (UK!) asked me to make up the following notice.
ORTHORISED
PERSONS
ONLY
I couldn't tell him because he was the boss :)
Oh my, that's so creative.
You did it again ;)
Air hostesses / Airhostesses? ..also have a phrase for it ;)
for some mysterious reason the system won't let me put a space in between "Airhostesses" and the? question mark ..?
[edited by: Leosghost at 1:14 pm (utc) on Jan. 10, 2006]
OK instead of okay.
Popular consensus tends to lean to the origin as being "all correct" ..and that OK is the phonetic contraction of the phrase .."okay" couldn't therefore be "OK" as the contraction ..:) because it would be longer than was OK ..for a contraction :)
your refutations would carry more weight if I knew you could actually read in the original french and understand them,the selfsame examples which I present
A couple of points of clarification may be in order.
First, I am sorry if I implied or seemed to imply that you viewed the scapegoat in Lev 16 as simply getting "off the hook". I see that was an overstatment. But I don't think that changes the point I was making.
Second, about the French text. You presume incorrectly. I did briefly peruse it... and I see that there may be some "issues" there. But you misunderstand ME if you think I was responding to THAT text. In fact, I was at no point attempting to respond to that text, much less to refute your understanding of it. When I wrote "it is THIS goat that the text explicitly makes exactly that point about" the TEXT I was referring to was Leviticus 16 itself.
I thought the central point you were concerned from the start was with was how folks had misunderstood the BIBLICAL passage. So I spoke to that, rather than to what any particular commenatator may have said about it. It would probably be fruitless to start citing numerous commentators who clearly do NOT confuse the two goats, but I don't think the confusion of one or many have much to do with the original issue of whether people are using an English expression correctly.
At any rate, to explain my earlier points, I guess I need to cite THE text --Lev 16 itself (in English translation, though I'm prepared to discuss the Hebrew if necessary). For brevity's sake, I here cite only the key verses:
5 And he shall take from the congregation of the people of Israel TWO male goats for a SIN OFFERING, and one ram for a burnt offering.
8 And Aaron shall cast lots over the two goats, one lot for the Lord and the other lot for Azazel [traditionally 'scapegoat']. 9 And Aaron shall present the goat on which the lot fell for the Lord and use it as a sin offering, 10 but the goat on which the lot fell for Azazel shall be presented alive before the Lord TO MAKE ATONEMENT OVER IT, that it may be sent away into the wilderness to Azazel.
21 And Aaron shall lay both his hands on the head of the live goat, and CONFESS OVER IT ALL THE INIQUITIES of the people of Israel, and ALL THEIR TRANSGRESSIONS, ALL THEIR SINS. And he SHALL PUT THEM ON THE HEAD OF THE GOAT and send it away into the wilderness by the hand of a man who is in readiness. 22 THE GOAT SHALL BEAR ALL THEIR INIQUITIES ON ITSELF to a remote area, and he shall let the goat go free in the wilderness.
The words in capitals summarize the ROLE of the "scapegoat" (now understood as the goat "for Azazel"). Now there is a partial parallel in the role of the two goats (BOTH are called "sin offering"), and perhaps that has led some to confuse them. But that's a separate discussion, and has little to do with the original question of the meaning of English words. The only point germane to the present discussion is whether the "SCAPEGOAT" was in some way made to bear someone else's guilt. I think the words of the biblical text itself make that conclusion inescapable.
Finally, let me underline what has really been my main point all along. You brought this term up as an example of people making an English language mistake. I disagree. When folks use "scapegoat" in precisely the sense recorded in all the English dictionaries they are not misusing the English language! As far as the "original biblical meaning" issue, you are certainly free to accept or reject my argument that the use of the English term "scapegoat" is based on a CORRECT understanding of the biblical passage as regards the main issue (viz., carrying someone else's guilt). But I fail to see how a debate about the translation and interpretation of this Hebrew text determines what is "accepted English usage". (I also am still a bit perplexed about your point in introducing another scenario-- an alternate explanation of the term? -- which I can find in NO dictionary.)
