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From my mother tounge I am used to complicated "cases", not as many as Latin, but quite enough. Comes naturally to me, though, since I grew up with it. No sweat.
Now, here's some incongruity in the English language that I have not quite come to terms with:
When do you use "you and me" versus "you and I"?
Example:
Singular: He gave it to me.
Plural: He gave it to my husband and me /..or../ my husband and I
Singular: I am going on holiday.
Plural: My friend and I /..or../ my friend and me are going on holiday?
Which is correct? Sometimes I hear phrases like that and the hairs on my neck stand up, because my native grammatical training would have told me to use exactly the other form.
Quite a hard one to crack for a non-native English speaker.
Opinions?
Tey
//*** Was Oscar Wilde? Was Thornton Wilder? Did Alistair Cooke? ***//
Singular: He gave it to me.
Plural: He gave it to my husband and me /..or../ my husband and ISingular: I am going on holiday.
Plural: My friend and I /..or../ my friend and me are going on holiday?
Dative (objective) case makes the first Plural example read as "He gave it to my husband and me.
Nominative (subjective) case make the second Plural example read as "My friend and I are going on holiday."
Dative (objective) case . . . "He gave it to my husband and me.
I'm not so sure how very useful it is to even speak of a "dative" case in English as much as all the non-nominative (subject) forms have fallen together. But your use of the pronouns is certainly correct.
I think what confuses people is that many were drilled in elementary school NOT to use the compound subject "Jim and me" (or "me and Jim"!)as kids are prone to do. But it was all JUST drilling, without understanding. They NEVER had it explained to them that this rule was ONLY for subjects. So they became accustomed to using "and I" for all such compounds. Hence many educated people use the incorrect form, and it even starts to "sound" right to them... all of which compounds the problem (no pun intended)!
I always taught my own kids (now teenagers) to try it in their heads without the first part (drop "Jim and"). I think they finally get it.
Of course, there IS at least one widely admitted exception: "It's [me/us/him/her/them]." Most of us pedantic types probably allow this "colloquial" form simply because "It is I" sounds stilted. But in light of the fact that we do NOT any longer have a full case structure in English I'm not quite sure the "rule" it is supposed to be violating (of using the same case for both nouns linked by copulative verbs like "to be, seem, become") is based on an altogether accurate description of how modern English grammatical categories function
I'm not so sure how very useful it is to even speak of a "dative" case in English as much as all the non-nominative (subject) forms have fallen together. But your use of the pronouns is certainly correct.
It helps us little pea brains differentiate it from the accusative case (that's slang for "direct object") . ;)
"It is I" sounds stilted.
Sounding stilted is what sets us apart from the ignoramuses (see message #71). :)
Back to miss uses and or miss spellings ( not always on websites )..
This one is one of my "red rags"
"Scapegoat" ( in french "bouc emissiaire" ) used in both languages to mean "one who is blamed" when in fact the scapegoat or bouc emissaire was the animal who was used ( still is in some places ) to lead the other animals into the slaughter house ..thus they are fooled into thinking "this place" is safe ..the goat is of course not killed and so for him "this place" is not personally threatening and he can repeat the walk daily or hourly ..
The problem being "one who is blamed" or who takes the blame for another should be the "whipping boy" in french "souffre-douleur"..an actual child who was punished for the misdemeanors of an aristocratic or royal child who could not be punished..
I must hear or read the former used when the latter is meant at least once per day in France ( unfortunately someone here "Furetière" centuries ago mistranslated the leviticus texts to french and the mistake has stuck even into the encyclopedias , dictionaries and the french wiki! the same mistake was made even earlier in the 13th century! ) and once per month in english ( Holman Hunt incorrectly used the scapegoat the title of his picture ) broadcasting ..website use is less widespread ..one of the things that makes me back out faster than a flash intro does for most people..
Scapegoat or bouc emissaire means neither "outcast" nor "sacrificial animal" ..but the goat which "escapes" ..or the "emissary" goat who gets sent in first..
Which a little thought on the meaning of words even by long dead and some still living scholars would have shewn.
It isn't because most people use the wrong word for what they mean to describe that "majority use" makes it the right word ..even if they have done so for hundreds of years ..
BTW ..I thought that the plural of ignoramus ..was ignoramii? like virus and virii ;)
Singular: He gave it to me.
Plural: He gave it to my husband and me /..or../ my husband and ISingular: I am going on holiday.
Plural: My friend and I /..or../ my friend and me are going on holiday?
If you use 'me' when it is just you, you also use it when there is another person involved. Ditto for 'I'.
So, its "He gave it to my husband and me" and "My friend and I are going on holiday."
Simple really.
BTW ..I thought that the plural of ignoramus ..was ignoramii? like virus and virii
Haha, I never thought of you as an ignoramus before. I'll just continue with a good thought. :)
Anyway, according to Will Rogers, everybody's ignorant - (you know the rest).
A classic US invention (on par with the verb golfing)
If you hate the word 'golfing', I'll bet you really hate the word 'pickayunish'.
Wait, that isn't a word. Yet. ;)
I thought that the plural of ignoramus ..was ignoramii? like virus and virii ;)
[edited by: lawman at 11:58 pm (utc) on Jan. 5, 2006]
[edit reason] But it's not a WW word. [/edit]
I'll just continue with a good thought.:)
Ma didn't raise no ignoramii 'n' our house ..just us sheamii :)
jus wundrin out loud ..would it be avouii in the plural or avoués..à ton avis?
