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Kackle - can you explain the "dictionary" for me? And how I might benefit from it - Im reading your posts hard but dont see where youre coming from.
Sure. But you have to act quickly. Google will fix this one just like they fixed the hyphen.
1. Google is depreciating pages/sites that are over-optimized for certain keywords or keyword combinations. It does this by looking up search terms in a dictionary of target keywords or keyword pairs that it has compiled. This dictionary is Top Secret, because if you knew what was in the dictionary, you could avoid these words in your optimization efforts.
2. If the search term or terms hit on a dictionary entry, the search results for that user's search are flagged. This means that before the results are delivered, the order of the links, or even the inclusion of links, are adjusted so as to penalize pages that have overoptimizated for those terms. Most likely the title, headlines, links and anchor text are examined. It's possible that external anchor text pointing to that page has also been pre-collected and is available for scanning, but this is much less likely. (Besides, external links are not something within your immediate control, so don't worry about it right now.)
3. You want to find out which keywords that are relevant to your site are in Google's dictionary. Compile as many relevant keywords you can think of that searchers might use to find your site. Now take these words singly and in pairs, according to how users might search. Run two searches for each combination and compare the results.
4. If the results are strikingly different for the pre-filter and the post-filter search on a particular term or combination of terms, it means that some variation of those terms has been flagged because something was found in Google's dictionary.
5. Do lots of searches and you can come up with a list of "sensitive" words that you'll want to avoid when you re-optimize your pages.
It's a nice weekend project.
Google is in the spotlight big time in financial circles.
Fortunately for them this is a slow media week in the US.
-c
Now here's the SEO deal. For the main 2-word phrase, it ranks #2. For the main 3-word phrase (which contains the 2-word phrase as the first two words), it ranks #1. It is not optimized for any other phrases. It is ranked out of 2,000,000 results.
PR was a 4 and is now a 5 on -va. There are only 21 backlinks to the site (which are reciprocated via the seven backlinks at the bottom of the page - so obviously some of the links to this site appear more than once on the other sites).
It uses H1 tags for both phrases.
All of the incoming links use either the 2-word phrase or the 3-word phrase as the anchor text.
2-word phrase - 10% density
3-word phrase - 10% density
url is hyphenated using all 3 words as the url.
title begins with the 3-word phrase.
[added] because it is a 1-page site, there are no internal link issues. i do have seven links to external sites at the bottom of the page, none of which include either of the optimized phrases.[end of added]
i hadn't really analyzed this site until now because frankly, i never really even think about that site. but looking at it now, it contradicts all the things that i thought might be wrong with my missing site's page.
the ONLY difference is that the phrase is not a huge moneykeyword. it does show 4 adwords ads when searching the phrase, but it's not one of the big money phrases, so if the "dictionary" exists, its not in there. (just confirmed that adding -dkdkdk to the end doesn't change the results).
not sure what to make of this analysis. any thoughts?
[edited by: dazzlindonna at 5:05 pm (utc) on Nov. 23, 2003]
Fortunately for them this is a slow media week in the US.
I doubt that anyone will notice but webmasters.
The press won't be bothered that pages have been replaced by other pages.
However if a major player that users Googles database decides to withdraw or move to another company due to the poor results then you would have a story.
As for what we have at the moment is just pure webmaster only news.
I must say however that your very useful example fits a set of conditions I'm looking at that might exist within Kackle's theory.
I believe it's possible to have all those factors you mentioned in place, and not be banished even if your KW phrases are in the dictionary. If I can find no exceptions to the set after more testing, I'll post it for scrutiny.
[edited by: caveman at 4:51 pm (utc) on Nov. 23, 2003]
To add a bit to wild theories, there is no comment from in the know people because this super amazing long thread is an in detail analysis of google results by hundreds or more people. ( which is being replicated on every other seo forum). Could you even buy this kind of analysis?
I feel like a lab rat at this point.
To add a bit to wild theories, there is no comment from in the know people because this super amazing long thread
And why should they comment?
At the end of the day Google is just another web site like the rest of us.
They can update and change the way they operate as much as they like. Long term we all know Google is looking to improve their results and be the best web site (search engine) for users to find web sites.
WebmasterWorld is a great place for webmasters to share their ideas and opinions relating to webmaster topics from Php to on-line marketing. Google doesn't answer to anyone even if this thread went to Part 6, which I can see it will.
WW is not a place to put pressure on Google to speak up or to make them change the way they operate. Like most big companies they will look out for any feedback and comments from forums like WW and other media.
They do a great job and have come along way and it won't end here.
Create your sites for your business and not for Google its the only way :)
<<I would say the update is done and has been since at least tuesday.>>
Ahh..a hint of reason among the insanity.
[edited by: mfishy at 5:08 pm (utc) on Nov. 23, 2003]
To make matters worse, an Amazon.com book page is in the #1 position--which seems pretty dumb, since people who are looking for information on [keyphrase] obviously want the information, not an ad for a book.
Fortunately, most of my traffic arrives on inside pages, and one of my other inside pages is #6 for the keyphrase, so I probably won't see any major traffic impact while waiting for the next tweak in Google's algorithm. There's a lot to be said for not having all of one's eggs in one .htm or .html basket!
Side note: This thread was 70 pages long when I hit the sack this morning. Do we need to start saving pages so we can later reference?
I've faired ok with this update except for the two word combo that is my top search in my niche that I have deliberately targeted using the methods outlined in WW. (nothing excessive)
I thought since this is the only area I'm lacking in at the moment, I'd crank up my bid for this two word combo. Interesting enough, no matter how much I bid I can't seem to raise my position in the adwords column. This "could" just be a time delay thing, and I'll report later if my position raises.
The interesting thing about this is, all my other keyword phrases that I'm using adwords with show the "interest" meter at 100%, but for this 2 words main phrase that my site is optimized for, it's at 50%.
Any possibility that there's some penalty in play that shows up on the adwords "interest" bar?
Check your adwords for your missing 2 keyword combos and see if the "interest" meter on the adwords window is less than 50%.
Unca
oops...change that to less than 100%
Unca
Welcome to WebmasterWorld, Europforvisitors! :)
Do you see now, that you can write "editorial" content to your hearts content and Google will still drop you into obscurity in a heartbeat?
Sure, having tons of pages and sites is, and will always be the best insurance for google, but it would be easier if they just returned the proper results.
We have several sites serving different locations which are built basically on the same structure. In fact it is so similar that it's not worth discussing the differences. All sites are highly optimized.
However - the thing is that keyword popularity bears no relation to the sites which were dropped.
We had one site completely dropped on keywords which hardly register on Google's radar, yet another stayed right on top for very popular and lucrative keywords.
We also admittedly had a site dropped which was on popular keywords.
But then we had a single page go straight in at number 1 on a term I would expect to be found in such a dictionary and it is full of dead links. It wasn't supposed to be indexed, but the single page is optimised for those keywords.
My conclusion is that this is not related to the popularity (or any other reason to enter them in a dictionary) of the keywords. This is a simple penalty determined by on-page or on-site factors.
We had a very interesting site which gave a good indication of what that might be. One the home page there were links to internal pages like this:
location1 widget
location2 widget
location3 widget
location4 widget
.
.
.
location10 widget
Locations 1 to 3 were dropped from the Google results. 4 to 10 were not. What was the difference? Locations 1,2 and 3 were also named in the page title. I think it's as simple as that. It's a filter triggered by too much SEO. No doubt other factors came into play such as keyword density, but this was the only clear example on all our sites where I could see exactly what was wrong.
(In other words, it hadn't been a part of the "disappearing index page problem" that other Webmasters had reported.)
To make matters worse, an Amazon.com book page is in the #1 position--which seems pretty dumb, since people who are looking for information on (keyphrase) obviously want the information, not an ad for a book.
Sounds like you have just joined the rest of us.
Bit by bit more and more white hatters are being dropped. Europeforvisitors I like your sites and have links on them, it goes to show that the filter knob has been turned to far.
Or
Florida update has still a long way to go before finishing. (which is what i believe)
This keyword that I'm having an issue with is a VERY high profile topic in the news today.
When I have myproduct/highprofilekeyword all over my page, why would my adwords "interest" meter only show 50% for this 2 word keyword combination, and why no matter how high I bid for this exclusive two word combo can I not raise above my competitors on the adwords column?
It's as if G is not seeing this keyword. (in the dictionary maybe?)
I was scoffing about conspiracy theories and dictionaries early, but maybe there's something to it.
Unca
In a particular search niche, there is one website that seems to be the exception to the over optimization of keywords and anchortext....This site is not spammy, bu they definetly have high keyword density in title, text, and anchortext....so why are they holding position?
I just noticed that they are using the Google Search Tool! They pay $599 per month for it: check out google/services/silver_gold.html (URL www in front).
If Google is making an exception for their customers who pay for their services...then this is really starting to stink...Does anyone else know of a website using the Google Search Tool (the pay one that searches your own website, NOT the free one)?
If so, could you do some tests to see if the same results may be true.
If this turns out to be true, then it looks like whoever is calling the shots at Google now is no longer the friendly Stanford computer geeks....looks like the Bill Gates, Larry Olson, sick and twisted business tactics may be creeping their way into Google....and YES, I have noticed a lot more AMAZON listings as well....I hope this is not the case, but it is starting to look fishy, especially when taking into account that Google is about to go public....exploiting the Google cash cow may be a little too tempting for some of these rape and pillage CEO types.
NOT trying to start another CONSPIRACY, so please don't react, just run some tests to see if you find Google 'pay for' products on any of the listings that seem to be holding their positions...also question the possibility of Google making deals with Amazon, and other big internet vendors.... Let's see if there seems to be a trend.
If "MS" theory were to hold true then they have made a very poor move - HECK we (webmasters/public) are the reason they (google) became popular. We are the ones that always recommended them to our friends and family.
1 person told 4, those 4 told 16, those 16 told 64, and exponentially the popularity increased! I believe that works in both directions - E.G. if a group (webmasters) started hammering back it would just as easily crumble!
1) It makes the SERPS look super clean - if a bit stodgy.
2) More people who are looking to buy will click the little green boxes on the right side of the screen.
I saw a post earlier in this thread siting a precident that Google could face legal action by delivering biased SERPS when pay per click results were also delivered. This is unlikely I think, because Google has the right to counter attempts to manipulate its results. It has plent of evidence to show that over time sites have become more and more optimised to take advantage of its algorithm.... And it also has a right to deliver non commercial results.
Having said that I think the fact that they have done it without telegraphing it is totally self centered and ignores the communities which rely on Google for their existence. There didn't have to be such collateral damage. Google could have had its "clean sites" and we could have maintained our positions too.
Are you saying that simply linking to a sub page from a homepage where the link text said "location1 widget" and the title of the page linked to was identical, that this got those pages nixed?
If so, Heaven help us.
Q: Are the files names of those three pages also the same? And if so, are they hyphenated?
HECK we (webmasters/public) are the reason they (google) became popular
I think its the
Google technology,
the ability to index 3 billion web pages,
produce relevent results in less then 0.10 seconds
produce fresh listings everyday,
create useful tools to enhance the users surfing experience and help find information
...oh and its free
thats what made it so popular.
:)
If so, could you do some tests to see if the same results may be true
not true
and speaking of this update there are exceptions for every theory mentioned here
Webmasters submitted the sites :) When webmasters start utilizing googlebot dissallow - those #'s will go down! The SERPS will then be full of amazons, ISP - user pages, deep links, and similar CRAP!
produce relevent results in less then 0.10 seconds
relevent? Ive been searching KW phrases today and looking at the sites in the top places - those KW phrases are no where to be found on the site. Thats not relevancy!
create useful tools
usefull tools?
...oh and its free
Free to search yes, but not free to list - theyre looking to make more off of adsense /adwords by providing crap results hoping users will click the ads.
If your site(s) havnt been affected yet - Im confident they soon will! Thats assuming your a white hat - Im certain there are some techniques they havent been able to filter yet, but once those sites float to the top they will be much easier to manually boot!
Its now obvious after a week of watching whats going on!
This means they want to show different types of information including commercial, informational, etc, each containing the searched-for phrase.
Chances are, if your site is buried in the SERPs, then you do not rank towards the top of your 'category'.
So, if you want to rank high for your lost phrases, you will need to either a) rank at the top of your category; or b) change the focus of your site to a different, less competitive category.
I don't know how to identify which categories are being shown, though. However, earlier in the week I did see Google actually list all the categories from which results were drawn, (underneath the SERPs, at the foot of the page). About 6-7 categories were listed in green underneath a heading: categories
Google's directory is showing the results they intend it to. Everything is in their directory now (even if you can't see it in their 'public' directory). Everything is categorised.
[edited by: James_Dale at 6:17 pm (utc) on Nov. 23, 2003]
'Not true' is pretty ambiguos...do you see a site that uses the 'pay for' Google search tool that has been dropped by florida?
I can only find one 1 site right now that uses this ;pay for' toool, so could you be specific... Do you know of another site that uses it?
