Welcome to WebmasterWorld Guest from 34.238.194.166

Forum Moderators: Robert Charlton & goodroi

Featured Home Page Discussion

Update Maverick : Google Updates and SERP Changes - July 2019

     
3:09 pm on Jul 1, 2019 (gmt 0)

Junior Member

joined:Nov 2, 2018
posts:55
votes: 24



System: The following message was cut out of thread at: https://www.webmasterworld.com/google/4947706.htm [webmasterworld.com] by goodroi - 1:17 pm on Jul 1, 2019 (utc -5)


Many advocate that to combat reliance on visits through Google Search you need to build a brand. Obviously it is not enough.
11:33 am on July 22, 2019 (gmt 0)

Full Member

Top Contributors Of The Month

joined:June 28, 2018
posts: 310
votes: 144


A couple of topics I know I can't use Google for and get reasonable unbiased answers for includes health, torrents,IP tv streaming sites, supplements, anabolic steroids, certain political views, alternative health care, natural cancer treatments those are just a few that come to mind.


Yes I agree with this. Ive moved to using duckduckgo as my primary search engine a while ago and I remember the first things I noticed that were impossible to find in google were torrent sites. Recently I find that google is terrible for finding the answers to technical questions (sysadmin, linux, programming etc) , often quite basic ones also and if anything that was one of its earliest strengths - techy people naturally were the first adapters of the internet so from an early stage the answers to tech queries were being put online, so there is no excuse as the info is certainly out there - google search now simply is not as good at giving you what you are looking for. Im sure this kind of thing will be driving people to using other search engines as it has me, but the majority wont change as they know no different.

I find myself now using DDG first and then sometimes google for certain things - for example if Im looking for a business address etc I like the google map result along with that. Also , when I switched to DDG as primary search engine I also switched to Firefox instead of chrome for more privacy and something I noticed is that my youtube selections as very different, change less often and seem to be less likely to send me down a youtub rabbit hole (im still logged in with a google account on this but in FF). I look at this 2 ways, one you could say the experience is a bit less interesting but on the other hand Im not being manipulated in using youtube more and more, find I dont get distracted by it as much. I prefer this for sure.

I also agree that an entity as powerful as google should not be allowed to control what we do and do not see. Im glad people are becoming more aware of this and hopefully it will continue down to come to public attention.
I believe something will happen that will change everything though. Not sure what yet but technology has a habit of disrupting what is the norm and turning things on its head pretty rapidly. People are trying for sure and sooner or later some kind of new idea, along the lines of a distributed system maybe, will take the control out of the hands of Google, FB, amazon etc. It will of course bring its own problems along with it.
12:02 pm on July 22, 2019 (gmt 0)

Junior Member from MX 

Top Contributors Of The Month

joined:July 24, 2018
posts:75
votes: 30


I have been using DDG as well as my primary search, sometimes Bing and I also ran across this one Qwant it's a European search engine but delivers good results and have a very clean interface (not half bad), don't know where they scrape their data from but at this point anything is better than G search.
12:26 pm on July 22, 2019 (gmt 0)

Junior Member

Top Contributors Of The Month

joined:Sept 25, 2017
posts: 140
votes: 31


still seeing loads of movement again today. Ridiculous.... Anyone else still seeing loads of movemt in the SERPs?
1:15 pm on July 22, 2019 (gmt 0)

Full Member

Top Contributors Of The Month

joined:June 28, 2018
posts: 310
votes: 144


@southernguy - not seen that quant before but just checked it out and it looks good. I will try it out also
1:38 pm on July 22, 2019 (gmt 0)

Junior Member

Top Contributors Of The Month

joined:May 25, 2018
posts:138
votes: 29


I love the design and feel of Qwant. And the results from searches seem pretty good and relevant. And it's not dominated by just a handful of health websites.
2:19 pm on July 22, 2019 (gmt 0)

Senior Member

WebmasterWorld Senior Member aristotle is a WebmasterWorld Top Contributor of All Time 10+ Year Member Top Contributors Of The Month

joined:Aug 4, 2008
posts:3630
votes: 365


Well "bias" is in the eye of the beholder.

Some people believe that the NASA trips to the moon didn't really happen, but were a hoax perpetrated by the U.S. government, with fake videos, etc. In their minds, if google doesn't give equal exposure to articles that support their view, then google is biased.
2:50 pm on July 22, 2019 (gmt 0)

Senior Member from US 

WebmasterWorld Senior Member 5+ Year Member Top Contributors Of The Month

joined:Oct 5, 2012
posts:947
votes: 194


with such an enormous control on the flow of information online


While it's a frequently repeated sound bite, google does not control the internet, what you see on the internet, or access to the internet. google may control what google's visitors see on google's website (as we all do with our websites) but your ISP has more control over what you see on the internet than google does.
3:04 pm on July 22, 2019 (gmt 0)

Junior Member from MX 

Top Contributors Of The Month

joined:July 24, 2018
posts:75
votes: 30


In my case, I own my own small ISP and also have access to the national Telco Internet service so yes Google does control what I see. For example, looking for torrents on Google is impossible, Bing DDG no problem. I find what I need immediately. Yes, I understand torrents are illegal so I am assuming Google sensors the main sites because they can't be found anywhere not even 10 pages deep. If this is not search censorship I don't know what is.

My apologies for being slightly agitated but I just can't drink the Google Kool Aid any longer.
3:15 pm on July 22, 2019 (gmt 0)

Senior Member

WebmasterWorld Senior Member Top Contributors Of The Month

joined:Nov 13, 2016
posts:1177
votes: 275


In all events people involved in illegal things are not going to use Google or any other White Internet services ...
4:05 pm on July 22, 2019 (gmt 0)

Senior Member

WebmasterWorld Senior Member editorialguy is a WebmasterWorld Top Contributor of All Time 5+ Year Member Top Contributors Of The Month

joined:June 28, 2013
posts:3459
votes: 769


Yes, I understand torrents are illegal so I am assuming Google sensors the main sites because they can't be found anywhere not even 10 pages deep.

It must be frustrating when people search for "cocaine dealers in [my neighborhood]" and Google censors the results!
4:52 pm on July 22, 2019 (gmt 0)

Junior Member

Top Contributors Of The Month

joined:May 26, 2017
posts:120
votes: 85


One thing I noticed is that Google provides extremely poor results in many professional sectors. For example, if you search Google for building materials, technological systems, light fixtures, and so on, most of the organic results link to low-quality Chinese suppliers and ultra-cheap online stores, not to the pages of the most reputed international manufacturers. I am an architect, so I would deem Google should know what I'm looking for, and it's not that Chinese crappy stuff. Yet, it seems that Google doesn't really know who I am or, maybe, it is simply no longer able to provide me relevant results.
6:20 pm on July 22, 2019 (gmt 0)

New User

joined:Mar 9, 2018
posts:19
votes: 7


Over the years I've noticed that people who are always making changes to their sites tend to do poorly in google's results.


Edited a personal site to test specific E-A-T related changes/fixes. As you can see, those specific tactics have had success.

Screenshot from E-A-T Optimization: [i.imgur.com ]
7:21 pm on July 22, 2019 (gmt 0)

Senior Member

WebmasterWorld Senior Member 10+ Year Member Top Contributors Of The Month

joined:June 18, 2005
posts:1867
votes: 88


I'm fine with Google indexing sites that do not believe we have been to the moon but it's certainly not "censorship" or "bias" or "controlling the internet" if their algorithm put it on the 20th page instead of real web sites like Nasa when someone search for astrophysical topics. It's just their algorithm taking reputation and authority into account. Not every opinion is equal, we have experts for a reason. People can still access the conspiracy site by word of mouth or deep specific searches. I'm glad that someone fix their skin problem with an unconventional solution, but for every such situations, there are also a hundred ruthless spammers trying to push their snake oils.
7:44 pm on July 22, 2019 (gmt 0)

Senior Member

WebmasterWorld Senior Member zeus is a WebmasterWorld Top Contributor of All Time 10+ Year Member

joined:Apr 28, 2002
posts:3468
votes: 18


koan - page 20 dont even exist, so they are in a way removed. Thats ranking of opinions thats not ok, they do not rank the quality of the ex. article.
8:35 pm on July 22, 2019 (gmt 0)

Full Member

Top Contributors Of The Month

joined:June 28, 2018
posts: 310
votes: 144


Not every opinion is equal


By why should Google decide what is valid and what is not? I don't need someone else telling what I can or cannot see, should or should not believe.
8:53 pm on July 22, 2019 (gmt 0)

Senior Member

WebmasterWorld Senior Member Top Contributors Of The Month

joined:Nov 13, 2016
posts:1177
votes: 275


In the other hand, is there a law or regulation which forbid search engines (or sites in general) the right decide of their content, and what they want to show or not ?
8:57 pm on July 22, 2019 (gmt 0)

Preferred Member

10+ Year Member Top Contributors Of The Month

joined:Apr 15, 2004
posts:592
votes: 106


In a way I agree with Google on the medical update you cannot have unqualified people giving advice but then it is the case for any field no qualified professionals will give their trading secrets on the web just to become a social star.

Better read a book than researching with Google.
9:03 pm on July 22, 2019 (gmt 0)

Senior Member

WebmasterWorld Senior Member Top Contributors Of The Month

joined:Nov 13, 2016
posts:1177
votes: 275


In a way I agree with Google on the medical update you cannot have unqualified people giving advice but then it is the case for any field no qualified professionals will give their trading secrets on the web just to become a social star.

And , I would add that, for a lot of Google's users (or Internet users in general), if a site appears in the first results, it means that it's trustworthy.

Better read a book than researching with Google.

A book might not tell what people want to hear :)
9:05 pm on July 22, 2019 (gmt 0)

Junior Member

Top Contributors Of The Month

joined:May 26, 2017
posts:120
votes: 85


In a way I agree with Google on the medical update you cannot have unqualified people giving advice but then it is the case for any field no qualified professionals will give their trading secrets on the web just to become a social star.


How the heck Google can judge who is qualified in a field or not. I have been a design professor at Milan Polytechnical University for ten years, but nobody from Google has ever contacted me to verify whether I am "qualified" to write about design or not.
The truth is that Google is utterly ignorant about the internet of today and even more utterly unable and unfit to judge who is qualified to write about something and who is not.

If I have learned something in the last years, is that Google is in no way that omniscient divinity someone thinks it is
9:25 pm on July 22, 2019 (gmt 0)

Senior Member from IN 

WebmasterWorld Senior Member Top Contributors Of The Month

joined:Apr 30, 2017
posts:1530
votes: 295


I don't have an author box. Just a byline that links to author bio page which is noindexed. A noindexed author page could be hurting EAT?
9:34 pm on July 22, 2019 (gmt 0)

Junior Member

Top Contributors Of The Month

joined:May 26, 2017
posts:120
votes: 85


I don't have an author box. Just a byline that links to author bio page which is noindexed. A noindexed author page could be hurting EAT?


So, do you really think almighty Google and its marvelous AI algorithm are unable to know who you are unless you explicitly tell them when they are able to tell what shops you have visited in the last two hours?
10:23 pm on July 22, 2019 (gmt 0)

Senior Member

WebmasterWorld Senior Member editorialguy is a WebmasterWorld Top Contributor of All Time 5+ Year Member Top Contributors Of The Month

joined:June 28, 2013
posts:3459
votes: 769


How the heck Google can judge who is qualified in a field or not. I have been a design professor at Milan Polytechnical University for ten years, but nobody from Google has ever contacted me to verify whether I am "qualified" to write about design or not.

But Google can see what kinds of sites and pages link to yours (if any). That's pretty much how things work in the non-digital world, too: If you hang out a sign that reads "Buddy's Design Studio" and never get press attention, positive word of mouth, letters of testimonial, etc., you'll be at a disadvantage compared to people or businesses who do.
12:35 am on July 23, 2019 (gmt 0)

Full Member

Top Contributors Of The Month

joined:June 28, 2018
posts: 310
votes: 144


But Google can see what kinds of sites and pages link to yours (if any)..


That is not proof of expertise - that can be for a number of reasons such as , black hat seo, paid links, private blog networks etc (very common and seems to be what wins in many niches)
Also something that happens ALOT in the travel niche is full time travel bloggers writing articles about a destination, often never even visiting the place or usually at best passing through for 1 to 2 weeks and then proclaiming themselves as 'experts' on that place. Ive lost count of the times ive seen these so called expert articles appearing in the top results yet they are full of incorrect information. They are NOT experts but they have lots of relevant links - just because lots of people don't know the info is wrong.
1:31 am on July 23, 2019 (gmt 0)

Senior Member

WebmasterWorld Senior Member editorialguy is a WebmasterWorld Top Contributor of All Time 5+ Year Member Top Contributors Of The Month

joined:June 28, 2013
posts:3459
votes: 769


That is not proof of expertise

It doesn't have to be. It merely needs to be good enough to satisfy the search engine. As for junk links, PBNs, etc., Google has at least one patent that describes using "seed sites" to help separate the wheat from the chaff:

[patents.google.com...]
3:25 am on July 23, 2019 (gmt 0)

Senior Member from CA 

WebmasterWorld Senior Member 10+ Year Member Top Contributors Of The Month

joined:Nov 25, 2003
posts:1333
votes: 426


When reading what Google says to do, what they want to accomplish or plan to change, and especially when listening to SEO commentators it is critical to keep in mind that most/all Google algo inputs are implicit symbolic stand ins for the explicit real inputs they'd prefer that their bots/algo are unable to recognise. And that many/most are founded from a popularity comparison wherein an artificial derived mass consensus is used to approximate human judgement on an issue.

The algo can NOT recognise the quality of content directly, this is readily apparent from the number of mashed idiocies and meaningless Markov generated pages.

That Google results have been and still can be gamed is their great weakness; that Google makes daily changes illustrates both how weak the algo and how hard they work to keep it viable.

I'm sure that there are dozens of SEO 'plays' extant at any given moment. The risks are in good for how long and at what price when they eventually fail. Plus the fact that however minimal there will always be false positives and negatives from every change.

The only way not to be targeted (because of a tactic) is not to play silly SEO idjit attempting to acquire and hold some Google query rank; instead play convert and retain the visitor and get Google for free.

The only way to minimise the possibility of being false/positive collateral damage in one or more of those daily changes is to NOT be interchangeable with your competitors.

It isn't rocket science, it's Business 101.
4:08 am on July 23, 2019 (gmt 0)

Senior Member from CA 

WebmasterWorld Senior Member 10+ Year Member Top Contributors Of The Month

joined:Nov 25, 2003
posts:1333
votes: 426


E-A-T is not new, it's almost 5-years old. A bit late to be just waking up...

See:
* How To Establish EAT (Expertise, Authority, Reputation)? [webmasterworld.com], August 2014.

And Bing's perspective:
* Bing: Trust and Authority Usually Sees Higher Rankings [webmasterworld.com], October 2014.

Note: down below I've quoted what Google has to say about E-A-T.
Note: E-A-T does not stand on it's own nor is an end in itself. To understand 'High Quality Pages' and much else one should read, research, and think carefully about how Google describes how to recognise what they think important: Search Quality Evaluators Guidelines, 2019 [google.com] (PDF 18.3MB).
Note: lastly, as I said above, the evaluators - and other humans - can distinguish as per Google's guidelines; unfortunately (or not) software, wven with ML, can not. So one one must also consider what implicit input signals Google might find practicable as stand ins. Then test, evaluate, repeat.

3.2 Expertise, Authoritativeness, and Trustworthiness (E-A-T)
Remember that the first step of PQ rating is to understand the true purpose of the page. Websites or pages without some sort of beneficial purpose, including pages that are created with no attempt to help users, or pages that potentially spread hate, cause harm, or misinform or deceive users, should receive the Lowest rating.

For all other pages that have a beneficial purpose, the amount of expertise, authoritativeness, and trustworthiness (E-A-T) is very important. Please consider:
* The expertise of the creator of the MC.
* The authoritativeness of the creator of the MC, the MC itself, and the website.
* The trustworthiness of the creator of the MC, the MC itself, and the website.

Keep in mind that there are high E-A-T pages and websites of all types, even gossip websites, fashion websites, humor websites, forum and Q&A pages, etc. In fact, some types of information are found almost exclusively on forums and discussions, where a community of experts can provide valuable perspectives on specific topics.
* High E-A-T medical advice should be written or produced by people or organizations with appropriate medical expertise or accreditation. High E-A-T medical advice or information should be written or produced in a professional style and should be edited, reviewed, and updated on a regular basis.
* High E-A-T news articles should be produced with journalistic professionalism - they should contain factually
accurate content presented in a way that helps users achieve a better understanding of events. High E-A-T news sources typically have published established editorial policies and robust review processes (example 1, example 2).
* High E-A-T information pages on scientific topics should be produced by people or organizations with appropriate scientific expertise and represent well-established scientific consensus on issues where such consensus exists.
* High E-A-T financial advice, legal advice, tax advice, etc., should come from trustworthy sources and be maintained and updated regularly.
* High E-A-T advice pages on topics such as home remodeling (which can cost thousands of dollars and impact your living situation) or advice on parenting issues (which can impact the future happiness of a family) should also come from “expert” or experienced sources that users can trust.
* High E-A-T pages on hobbies, such as photography or learning to play a guitar, also require expertise.

Some topics require less formal expertise. Many people write extremely detailed, helpful reviews of products or restaurants. Many people share tips and life experiences on forums, blogs, etc. These ordinary people may be considered experts in topics where they have life experience. If it seems as if the person creating the content has the type and amount of life experience to make him or her an “expert” on the topic, we will value this “everyday expertise” and not penalize the person/webpage/website for not having “formal” education or training in the field.

It’s even possible to have everyday expertise in YMYL topics. For example, there are forums and support pages for people with specific diseases. Sharing personal experience is a form of everyday expertise. Consider this example. Here, forum participants are telling how long their loved ones lived with liver cancer. This is an example of sharing personal experiences (in which they are experts), not medical advice. Specific medical information and advice (rather than descriptions of life experiences) should come from doctors or other health professionals.

Think about the topic of the page. What kind of expertise is required for the page to achieve its purpose well? The standard for expertise depends on the topic of the page.
7:39 am on July 23, 2019 (gmt 0)

Junior Member

Top Contributors Of The Month

joined:May 26, 2017
posts:120
votes: 85


But Google can see what kinds of sites and pages link to yours (if any).


This has nothing to do with a professional reputation, these days. It was perhaps true from the mid-1990s to the early 2000s when the Internet was a different place and Brin&Page were developing their first link-based algo. Today, things are very different and links no longer represent a reliable way to determine the level of expertise of the author of an article, IMHO.
It has been progressively harder for serious professionals and scholars to get digital links for the last 10 years, while the web is now plenty of paid, fake, unnatural links to low-quality/stolen/not-human content these days. The non-digital world is different, nobody will publish your articles on paper if they are not relevant for their readers; it would cost him too much.
Furthermore, it looks like Google isn't using the data it collects to determine competence and authorship (see what happens with stolen graphics and scrapped content, for example); this is arguably intentional because I can't believe that they are unable to do it, actually.
7:59 am on July 23, 2019 (gmt 0)

Junior Member

5+ Year Member Top Contributors Of The Month

joined:Jan 22, 2011
posts:112
votes: 6


The algo can NOT recognise the quality of content directly, this is readily apparent from the number of mashed idiocies and meaningless Markov generated pages.


This reminds me of a comment I saw from a Googler on Hacker News. He said people overestimate the intelligence of Google. Google can't look at a document and reliably work out its authoritativeness. It needs external signals(links) for that, that's why a list of Pinterest images can outrank a long article.

MayankParmar, I follow a number of tech categories and here's I've noticed.

The sites that I read tend to link out a lot and the links are dofollow. I get the impression that it's easy go get links there especially if you have an original story. Therefore "I get links" is not enough there, because your competitors get them too. I checked one of your top linked pages and it's on page 3 for its keywords, it's even getting outranked by sites that are quoting it. What stands out for me is that all the sites that outrank you have stronger backlink profiles. Maybe Google has simply decided you're not as authoritative as it previously thought.
8:04 am on July 23, 2019 (gmt 0)

Junior Member

joined:Feb 20, 2016
posts:45
votes: 24


I have a radical idea for Google. How about you let the public decide who to trust and who not to trust? The funny thing about living in a free society is that you are free to do pretty much anything you like as long as its not breaking the law! I know, I sound extremely radical right now.
8:22 am on July 23, 2019 (gmt 0)

Moderator This Forum from US 

WebmasterWorld Administrator robert_charlton is a WebmasterWorld Top Contributor of All Time 10+ Year Member Top Contributors Of The Month

joined:Nov 11, 2000
posts:12338
votes: 400


For example, if you search Google for building materials, technological systems, light fixtures, and so on, most of the organic results link to low-quality Chinese suppliers and ultra-cheap online stores, not to the pages of the most reputed international manufacturers.

riccarbi, I can tell you from experience that this is not Google's fault, but generally the fault of the large international manufacturers. Supply-chain manufacturers can be incredibly slow to catch on, and they also run into problems if they are perceived to be competing with their distributors. Depends on the niche, on the type of supply chain, and on the company management, of course.

This 518 message thread spans 18 pages: 518