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As an overseas provider, can anyone help me with what my options are? The client is in Ca, USA.
thanks
Vishal.
Did you get a contract signed or at least agreed to.
Dave
Yes I have everything agreed to by email. payment conditions etc. But being outside the US - what option does it leave me with?
1) Send them a 7 day letter explaining payment must be made within seven days or legal action will be taken. Get a name and address of a solicitor/lawyer that you would use, put this in the letter, so they know you are serious. Then after seven days...
2) If you are still able to update the site, replace your work with a holding page (such as a domain name holding page) stating that the page is awaiting payment. Then after a short while, email the customer, requesting information that is clearly on the site (the one you did) explaining that there must be a problem with the website. You should do this through a hotmail or yahoo address. Then sit back and wait... All the traffic they get, will just collapse in a big heap because they will strike the back button and if GoogleBot runs past and indexes your new work...it could be a few months before they are back in again! But that is their fault.
This is one reason why I get all fees in advance of any work because there can be problems like this.
I think in that case option 1 of gsx sounds a better alternative. Also do you know your clients knowledge of SEO. If it's not so great give him some hocus-pocus BS to digest. HTH.
But the entire SEO was done by me, so most of the pages there have been compiled and optimized by me.
What I can do is, send him new pages which are not optimized and ask their webmaster to upload it.
But thats just not right is it? and anyways like I said most of the hardwork has been done.
What I can do is, send him new pages which are not optimized and ask their webmaster to upload it.
Sounds an excellent idea to me! You could do this now before pursuing other courses of action - in case they fail. Make some subtle changes and put in some hidden text.
Tony Perry
There are always collection agencies. What sort of money are we talking about?
and always get the money up front in future!
Actually, the best way to do this is a performance based contract with payments made on certain benchmarks. Could be 1/3 up front (or after a certain benchmark) etc.
performance based contract with payments made on certain benchmarks.
Such persons would then screw around the second payment. It is generally prevalent in Basic optimization projects.
Such persons would then screw around the second payment.
Obviously, you've never set up this kind of contract, or have done it poorly in the past. Too bad. :)
I'm not going to launch into a contract writing tutorial, sorry.
generally prevalent in Basic optimization projects.
I would gently disagree with that.
If you find that the "general" quality of your clients to be non-paying, it sounds more like a problem of where you're sourcing your clients from.
But I'm not going to launch into a client hunting tutorial, sorry. :)
A letter is cheap. Maybe one of the lawyer-types that hangs out here would do it for less than some commercial firm you might find, or even for a barter of services.
Here's another approach. In the US, there are collection agencies that collect unpaid debts for a percentage of the fees. I think 25% - 40% is fairly typical. I have no idea whether they would work with an offshore firm, but if you have good documentation that might be a possibility. It's expensive, but 60% of something beats 100% of nothing. Before you engage such a firm, though, send one final letter including some words like, "FINAL NOTICE: This matter will be referred to a collection agency if certified funds are not received in 10 days". In the US, being referred to a collection agency goes on the firm's credit report. Most reputable firms try to avoid having this happen, although even good firms may have occasional vendor disputes.
If the company you are dealing with is on their way to bankruptcy, of course, you are probably out of luck.
If none of the above suggestions help, or if some of them are not possible for you, you could always put up your own site (or page) heavily-optimized for the same keywords, and document the fact that this client did not pay his bill. Since your site does not actually have to sell anything, you are free to improve upon keyword density and other factors that will make it rank highly, and should be able to beat the pages you optimized for the client - or at least a few of the top pages, the ones most important to the client.
As long as you stick to the facts of tha case, and avoid any name-calling and conclusions (such as, "He's a bum," you should be OK. Just document the project from start to finish, including the titles and descriptions of the pages you worked on, client name and address, and include the fact that you were never paid and that the client will not respond to your inquiries. No hearsay, no threats, just facts.
A few incoming links from sites belonging to friends and/or associates, using good link text, and you're all set.
This neatly avoids the problems caused by the fact that you don't have access to his site.
Next time, consider hosting the client site yourself during development, and retaining all rights (copyright) to the improved site until you are paid in full.
Best of luck,
Jim
So you need to weigh up whether you should put in the effort & cost, only to find that your customer would love to pay, but just can't right now. To make this determination, you need to speak to them, and if they don't return your calls, it becomes difficult. One way is to send an email or voicemail to the effect of 'I have just come across a fantastic opportunity for your business in my country. Please give me a call.' Make sure that your message says something along the lines of 'I know times are tough, so don't be embarrassed that you haven't paid me yet. I'd hate that to get in the way of this lucrative opportunity'. Once they call and you are discussing, you can get an assessment of what the problem is and decide whether there is any point in getting heavy handed vs offering them an extended payment plan with interest... (That will buy you time to find that 'lucrative deal' that you will need to come up with once their final installment has been paid off ;) )
In terms of some of the advice for future contracts that have been posted... I think it is very contectual. It is not reasonable, for example, to demand 100% upfront payment in all cases... Very much depends on te particular job.
[edited by: ShawnR at 3:32 pm (utc) on June 4, 2003]
1. the work is done and anything you do to "undo" that work will most certainly guarantee no payment ever, as well as tarnish your reputation > let's be perfectly clear about this.
As you have had no contact > you really don't know if the client is avoiding you or something else has come up. If for an example: a family death/emergency, unannouncement travel, or a hundred other valid reasons for lack of contact.
2. The fault lies in your own business practice not the clients. Long distance consulting is problematic you must protect yourself (this isn't just about protecting payment plans, as before anything you do and the way you treat all clients good and bad affects your reputation).
Credit cards should be used for payments (a client can still cancel the card but it is a bigger hassle to do so than not sending a check or bank draft). If a business doesn't have a credit card (long distance) you should not be working for them... this is a clue to "not a preferred client".
3. Long distance should be advanced paid and milestone controlled -- e.g. a payment received is for a certain amount of work, the next payment received is for more work etc. This allows both you and the client to receive precisely what is owing, and should one or the other stop fulfilling their end - you have received all that is owing to date and the client has got all work owing to date.
4. The most important > although money is good > the relationship is better. The long-term relationship defines your net worth.
As such - if a client for whatever reason can't or won't make a payment now > defer it, extend it, barter on it... do everything to salvage the relationship, and do nothing yourself to give the client a reason to start spreading bad credibility, poor reliability etc. that will most certainly ruin all business opportunities around their local region.
And if there is no way to this (salvage the relationship), it is better to do nothing > because you have much more to lose than they do. Your success relies on referrals and maintaining your credibility.
Going to court is your only alternative and this cost more money than what you have lost (particular if out of jurisdiction).
[edited by: fathom at 3:44 pm (utc) on June 4, 2003]
It's sad to note that you are not paid.
Now coming to what can be done?
1.Write letter to Indian Organisation that represents IT related issues.?I am sure there are couple of them.
2.Write to a lawyer in US saying that you would pay 10% or 20% of the amount if he could settle the issue for you.
3.As said in the discussion already if you could afford time and energy recreate a new site with the same keywords try to rank above them.
4.Take up the issue on long term write to as many legal advisers as possible,I am sure India now as Cyber LAW which should be having a provision under this.If you have all the Necessary Emails then it should be fine.
Hope this Helps,
Aravind
Do you have a friend from overseas with a cel phone. Use their cel phone as the three digit prefix will be that of the cel phones and not one from India.
I also agree with fathom points.
Lastly, what do you know of them. What motivates them? What do they fear? Trying to say what will work against an unknown quantity is difficult. If we knew what motivated them to take action in the first place then we could begin to think of how to use that as a lever in motivating them to pay.
Okay, one more point, they know you are off shore. A letter from a local firm, maybe a lawyer will signal intent that you will pursue this and it might be enough to initiate payment.
Best of luck,
Shane
Call the main number, ask for accounting, when you get accounting tell them the amount owed, the date you sent in the invoice, and ask them to tell you when the check will be cut. Be sure to mention (first) that you're calling long-distance so they'll put some hustle in it.
If they have no record of your invoice, ask if you can fax it to them and tell them you'll call back tomorrow to check on progress. Ask for a specific person's name and get their direct telephone number as well so you are going to the source and won't have to explain yourself again the next day. Then send the fax of your invoice (write a nice cover note THANKING them for dealing with this so promptly) and call them back the next day. (You can also stamp the invoice OVERDUE before faxing it -- that often puts a fire under the accounting folks since that faxed invoice showing the stamp goes into a permantent file and may cause issues when they're audited.)
The moment you talk to someone with the invoice in front of them ask for the check number for confirmation -- take control of getting the money, act as if you expect to get paid with no questions asked, and ask for that check number before they can get the discussion off on another track. If they say they have to get the manager you worked with's signature or that there's no official PO, say that you understand but you'll need to talk to *their* manager since the work is complete and they have a legal obligation to pay for services (be gentle, polite, but firm). Tell them you've been waiting patiently, but really don't see what the hold-up is. (And if they say "oh, we only cut checks once a month" say "I understand that's your usual process, but since my invoice is already overdue I believe you need to make an exception.") Keep asking how soon the check will go out and what the check number is...often just repeating this 2-3 times during the course of the conversation will result in someone who has other work to do pushing the invoice through just because they can't get rid of you otherwise!
Also, be sure to ask the nice accounting person if you can just contact them directly in the future if there are any problems. <wink> Even if you don't plan to work with this company again, by setting up that personal relationship you've made the accountant feel personally responsible for seeing that the check doesn't get held up again.
It doesn't always work (sometimes the invoices need to be signed off by the very person who's holding up the $$s in the first place and they keep stonewalling), but in some companies it works GREAT. It works especially well in companies where the accountants have previously been yelled at by angry vendors who have issues with the exact same manager -- wanting to avoid any sort of similar situations the accountants quickly pay (even if it means paying without the manager's official sign off). And by being polite and yet firm you stay on their good side.
Good luck!
I got hold of a local friend whom I know, in the same business and he said he'll try to contact the company or get his lawyer to send them a letter.
Personally I agree with fathom. The kind of results that have been achieved are good, so I would really not like to tarnish them and risk my reputation.
As an overseas provider a contract is also very difficult to implement since the company or individual defaulting on a few hundred or even few thousand dollars know that 9/10 times they will not be persued.
Anyways lets see what happens. Thanks guys for all the inputs.
Lessons learned are just that, and the more people with an appreciation of the ongoing sitrep (sorry military lingo) situation report the more chances someone can offer a good solution to a developing problem.
It scared him seriously, though not exactly worked (mainly because I was lacking time and incentive to push it further). And I'm not a SEO and the client hadn't much of a clue what SEO is.
But you're in a much better position, I think. Being in India works in your advantage - they can't practically sue you, but you can screw them online using your SEO skills, and they know it.
I think they will pay if they're not completely stupid. Though the latter is pretty common among deadbeats ;(
