Comments on Denial to Yahoo

[tinahartman]

Our site was denied for lacking "unique content".
After 3 weeks of adding additional unique content and appealing with a list of the content we added which we did not find in other sites like ours, we were still denied for the same reason.
The problem is that another site was accepted the exact day we were denied that offers the same products we do and offers none of the "unique content" we added.
Do I have any recourse? or is that the way the cookie crumbles?

[Brett_Tabke]

I think the real question is, did you "pay" for this one?

[tinahartman]

Do you mean did we submit via the Business Express Service?
Yes, we paid $199 for review
Would that make a difference?

[2_much]

Hi Tina,
Unfortunately, sometimes that's just the way the cookie crumbles when it comes to yahoo...but you don't have to give up yet.
Whether your site is accepted depends on many factors...once your site meets the basic requirements, then it depends on the editor that receives the submission, his/her mood, and other such factors.
The key lies in the letter that you send them back. Spend a lot of time crafting a letter explaining what's unique about your site as opposed to other sites in that category...basically, you have to convince the editor that your site is an asset to the directory and will benefit Yahoo's users by offering something that no other site offers.
Since you already appealed it might be hard at this point, but you can still give it a shot. Be sure to craft the letter carefully and make it compelling and convincing.
Good luck!

[tinahartman]

The most compelling reason, besides some really informative, useful content, is that we offer the lowest prices on these products
(which was mentioned in the appeal)
I just cannot understand if the users best interest is the most important determining factor for inclusion, saving the user money would be reason enough for acceptance.
I know that I would want the ability to decide for myself which company I want to spend my money at.
Thank you so much for the great reply.

[2_much]

Hi Tina,

My experience with these is that the way to convince editors is to focus on unique CONTENT, ie. information that is nowhere to be found in the directory. For the editors, the price of the product isn't as important as the information offered on the site. Before you resubmit, you may want to try emailing that editor back one more time and focusing on the unique content that your site offers. Explain what it is, why it's valuable, and how it will be of benefit to yahoo's users.
If this doesn't work, then I'd suggest setting up another domain and submitting one more time, focusing on the useful content that your site offers that others don't.
Hope this helps.

[tinahartman]

That helped quite a bit.
I will give it a whirl
Thanks again for everyones input

[Brett_Tabke]

Gosh, it really is rare to hear of someone getting denied after paying the submission fee. There must be something about your site that isn't 'quite right'. Some things I would check:

- Look at the site in as many browsers as you have available. Have friends with macs? Make sure the code validates.
- Try to remove anything remotely related to: mlm schemes, pay-to-surf, competitor affiliate programs (alta,google,lycos...etc), and real "cheesy looking" links you may have.
- If nonadult site, remove anything even remotely to suggest it is.
- Privacy policy link clearly visible on homepage.
- Contacts page. Make sure to have an email address, postal address, and phone number on the contacts page if you are an ecom site.
- Clean looking, fast loading pages.
- Absolutly no "under construction" signs anywhere.

The biggest single cause of rejection to yahoo, is the inability of the editors to see a clean site. Most editors are on Mac's with NN. The site needs to be visible in IE and NN for Mac at 640x480 (preferrably at 256colors). That means get rid of the dynamic html, any thing "active x", and eliminate most java and java script. If you use CSS, make sure you know the bugs that effect NN.

[tinahartman]

There really is nothing "cheesy" about the site: very clean - straight html no javascript - no affiliates. contact address link on each page.
All links have been validated.

For those who would like to view the site please email me at [e-mail] and I will provide the url.

It's possible the editor just does not want us in there.

[curiousgeorgeII]

It's criminal what they do. I have made cheeseball affiliate pages and had them placed in primo heaven, and I have busted my butt to meet all terms and conditions to get turned down. For some reason I have found it best to just follow the terms as best as possible, but there is that big human factor. These editors are like GODS. Somedays they are happy and do things to make really cool things happen to sites that don't deserve it. Sometimes they don't feel too friendly and put their wrathe on those that don't deserve it.

[2_much]

Hi CuriousGeorge, and once again welcome to WmW. My experience contraries yours a bit when it comes to Yahoo. We've rarely had problems with Yahoo editors because we spend a vast amount of time preparing sites for submission. We only submit a site when we know it's a 100% ready, contains unique content, and follows Yahoo's guidelines and the ones Brett mentioned in this thread.
If we do everything right, 90% of the time the editors accept the site and list it with a fair title and description. There has been that 10%, and those we list by writing a very good appeal letter.
Like you said, the key is to "...just follow the terms as best as possible."

[curiousgeorgeII]

I should of not said "criminal". A bit too strong. It's just the human factor.

[hello]

I agree with curiousgeorge11. It totally depends on the editor that receives the submission for a paid listing. I know from experience of my own submissions that some totally cheesy sites get listed and others with unique content and very professionaly done to been turned down. It depends on the editor that receives the submission. Thats just my opionion from experience. As far as the "unique content" reply which they always use as the excuse for denial, its not consistent, because tons of sites without content are approved. Its just the luck of draw!!!

[curiousgeorgeII]

Still, I think it may not all be bad intentions. Some editors might see the effort a great number of novices are putting into their sites, and $200.00 is a large sum to most working people. Due to this I feel an editor might take some heart and let it in. This just creates a chain effect where others feel like they are being mistreated and so they complain loud and heavy. Before you know it that particular directory is loaded with cheese.
Still I like the system in a way because if you use it enough, you will (eventually) get one where you like it and by having to tolerate the turndowns, some of the competition will give up and go away as paying someone $200.00 to piss you off grows old quickly.

[tigger]

I've been submitting sites useing biz express and so far (touch wood) have never had a site rejected, my problems been with the appeal process or complete lack of.

I started this thread due to complete frustration with yahoo www.webmasterworld.com/forum35/228.htm which got me nowhere at all with them.

I would be interested to hear what peoples experence is with appeals process and if anything was resolved, or is it just an open offer from yahoo with nothing to back it up, my experence has unfortunately been the later

[Napoleon]

I am broadly with curiousgeorge on this one... there are serious flaws with Yahoo editorial license.

The problem lies with consistency. Some editors are fair and reasonable, others (a very small minority) are not - it is these that bring the whole process into disrepute.

I have had many sites accepted by Yahoo. In fact all of them except for one.

Not all have been plain sailing... some have gone to appeal, but on every occasion, once I have explained the unique perception of the site or repaired an error, they has been accepted.

Some editors have been excellent in explaining the problem, and very patient(and one also helped resolve the problem!). This is how it should be when you pay the money, and largely how it has been.

Unfortunately, in every crowd you do get bad apples as well.

I have had a running problem with one particular site (I'll name it if anyone want to take a look).

The editor (one Bizex8), rejected it for not being unique, naming another site as being similar. Sure, ONE of the products on the site was the same, but that was it.

First appeal... I explained this fact, gently, in a non-confrontational way. Same rejection email appeared.

Second appeal... I added more content, which I ensured was TOTALLY unique. Same rejection email appeared.

Third appeal.... I crafted a very grovelling but factual email explaining why the site was unique and the very unique perspectives it offered. Totally ignored.

Fourth appeal... I set up a site on a differnet URL, exactly the same topic but entirely different words and ommitted the product which was common with the other competing site. Rejected... standard letter saying it was a different URL and therefore another $200 would be required.

Very frustrating obviously... I am certain that every other editor I have dealt with would have accepted the paid submission, probably on the first attempt. But I get this guy... totally uncooperative and obviously hostile to something.

But what? Who knows... I certainly don't. There is obviously something he/she has taken exception to, and it isn't the content!

This is the problem with Yahoo submission - it is subject to human non-rational intervention. Any system like this is always going to run the risk that the human editor makes decisions based upon unfair or emotional criteria.

Yes it is wrong, and this editor is wrong for sure (and should not be in this job), but what can be done.

Unfortunately, not a lot.. and this is one of the problems with the Yahoo submission proces - there is no appeal mechanism to a third party or different editor!

There should be. In a case like this all the rational arguments in the world are not going to make a difference. Even a fresh site with fresh content (yes easily good enough for Yahoo) does not make a difference!

The only recourse would be to submit all the evidence to a 'super editor' or other Yahoo authority. But there is not such mechanism.

Yahoo should look at this very closely.

[tigger]

Napoleon,

Looks like you've had a similar experience to mine with the total lack of service when it comes to appeals, basically I now feel if it doesn't get in the way you would like it first time round forget it.

I do realise that both the fee & the description, once you hit the pay button, does belong to yahoo, but let's face it would we try to submit something knowing that there was a chance of it being rejected due to lack of content.

I also did the gentley gentley approach with my first 2 appeals and to say I was on all fours is no under statement. on both occassions that same standard e-mail was returned, you almost get the impression no one even reads them (call me paranoid or what).

The third e-mail, which was a bit stronger, got the same reply.

I was talking to a UK ISP recently who's offices are just around the corner from yahoo and his comment, when I recently was blowing about yahoo, was "they all walk around like little gods there" and although I would like to think that wasn't the case you do start to get the feeling that it could be true!

I completely agree with you on the issues of a 'super editor' but would you have any trust in this person!

But as we all know the importance a good placement on yahoo we will all still pay.

[Napoleon]

Thanks Tigger. I know that we are far from being alone... and it's hardly an extreme demand - just fair and consistant treatment. Not a lot to ask for $200 I would have thought.

Obviously Yahoo Inc don't deliberately do this, and as I mentioned in my last post, most editors are excellent. However, this is totally negated when you come across one like Bizex8.

I do get the same impression as you though, certainly with this guy. I do everything possible, even to the point of constructing a new site (and let's face it most of us on here know how to produce a decent site) and am nice as pie throughout, yet I am still treated with 100% disrespect.

No proper explanation, no willingness to correspond in a humane way, seemingly total arrogance.

The bottom line though is that we ARE customers, which most editors respect. But Yahoo must really do something to address the minority.

Maybe there are other routes, but surely the easiest for Yahoo would indeed be some further editorial body which could arbitrate in these situations. This wouldn't just help us, the customers, but would help Yahoo itself to identify and eliminate rogue editors.

[curiousgeorgeII]

I do not know you people pesonally, yet you also speak of rejection originating from one bizex8. Why is it that this one editor in particular seems to generate a significant higher number of rejections than the others. Not only have I been rejected by bizex8 but know of at least 12 other individuals who have also. Furthermore, I know of no rejection that did not originate from bizex8. Is bizex8 the editor they assign to all rejected sites?

[2_much]

Hhmmm...so far my experience with Yahoo has been exceptional.

Considering that they are the top search service on the internet (backed by several studies that I can't find right now) I can imagine why their employees would be subjected to pride. Overall, the system that they have set up and the quality of the directory seems fairly high and professional. Of course it is prone to weaknesses as is every entity, especially on the internet where everything is so new and uncharted. However, when compared to other directories and search services, Yahoo has less weaknesses than most, IMO.

As a promoter and internet marketing specialist, I LOVE yahoo. The traffic they send us is amazing, and Yahoo users tend not to have a problem buying online. All this requires is a decent title and description, and getting added to the appropriate category.

Again, due to the amount of time we spend preparing each site, we most often get listed and with very good titles and descriptions. The couple of times we've been rejected, we've managed to get the site listed using the appeal process. I'm not sure why it hasn't worked for you guys, but we've been 85% successful with this. All we do is spend time crafting a very detailed explanation as to why the site would be an asset to Yahoo's users, and the site gets added. The key is to write a GREAT appeal the first time because after that I think they don't really look into it.

I agree that it would be ideal if they would perfect this process but I don't think it is something they're thinking about too much right now, with the current financial situation. It seems to me that their primary focus right now is profitability and revenue, which as a promoter I hope they're successful at. I would absolutely hate to see Yahoo fall under or for them to lose ground in the search world.

So in my realistic opinion, we can't expect much change from Yahoo at this time but what we can do is make sure we don't give any editors grounds to reject our sites. If the submission is the highest quality possible, then we're doing the editor a favor and saving him/her time because they don't have to spend too much time trying to decide what to do with the site. If I were a Yahoo editor and I see this awesome site with great content, design, etc, and the title and description matches, I'm most likely going to add the site, especially now that they need money.

So that's my 2cents, sorry for the long rant :)

[minnapple]

No bragging intended, (well . . . perhaps a bit) over the last 6 months I have added 8 sites using the FREE SUBMIT and 8 have been accepted.

One was a .org and the others were commercial .com's.

All were in the same region, perhaps going to the same editior (not sure if the editior name is assigned per editor or region or the like) .

Followed the basics, submitted to regional directory and topical, made sure the address and contact information was listed on the web site.

Email Contact information in the submit was a valid email address and NOT an AOL email address or the like.

Web sites size ranged from 10 to 150 pages, all straight and varified html with a little js, no affiliate programs or links to major commercial ecom sites.

All content was unique as unique gets.
Most sites were accepted within 10 business days and added within 14.

[Napoleon]

We are not complaining about the majority of editors, 2_much and minnapple, it's the small minority (esp: Bizex8) that bring the rest into disprepute.

However wonderful you think Yahoo is, there is no excuse for allowing abuse by an employee.

And this is the point I am trying to make. The only defense I can see for allowing this behaviour is that they are unaware of it. So why not create a submission process that allows review by a third party editor where there is contention?

No reason at all. So maybe they aren't as perfect as you seem to think.

From where I am standing I see a rogue editor rejecting excellent for sites for no good reason, ignoring all rational attempt at debate (at EVERY stage) and treating customers with nothing short of contempt.

All I actually want is for this guy (and any others like him) to act like the vast majority of Yahoo editors. Not a lot to ask really.

[Blossoms]

What is this I read about submitting with an AOL contact email address??!! That topic I will have to start another thread with if there is anything to it. It was outrageous to imply that an AOL address is somehow unreal but worse if it is the policy of any directory or SE to penalize anyone for having an AOL address as contact address for the submission itself.

Also: I read people in this thread defending the Yahoo directory as if a majority of either its senior or junior editors know what they are doing. Take for instance one of the 5 most popular search phrases and categories: "Dating Sites". Try that now please! You will see the CHEESIEST AFFILIATE directories possible! Realize that these cheesy "sites" are earning probably $50,000 per month in affiliate revenue from those completely inappropriate Yahoo positions. Yahoo gets 40% of search traffic. What about listing a category first which at least includes the industry leading real content sites like Kiss.com, Match.com and Blossoms.com? What about the real content? The real dating databases? NOTHING when you type great dating keywords into Yahoo. If I were the new CEO of Yahoo, I would have no choice but to fire the senior person in charge of directory operations. But you have the anarchist factor in Yahoo's culture. I just picked the dating industry as an example here. Pick another very hot topic and find the same thing. Millionaires will be created for hot topic industries who don't really deserve it. But that is what some anarchist editors want to have happen - spread the wealth to those who weren't privileged enough to learn HTML. But maybe someone at Yahoo needs to investigate if its really anarchy that is going on. Some of those cheesy old-HTML affiliate directory sites can have affiliate payouts going to friends or relatives of Yahoo employees. A well positioned dating affiliate site gets BEAUCOUP BUCKS. Just go to Google Adwords to see how many times people type certain keywords every day. Then imagine what happens on Yahoo. Its inexcusable for a directory to claim it doesn't have rats and mice for editors when there's so much cheese dominating the most common search phrases.

and, please, don't anyone say that senior Yahoo editors don't have the time to organize a fair results page for each of the 100 most popular search phrases. It would take a competent, non-anarchist minded manager about a week to make the Yahoo results for high traffic categories make sense. Maybe even one day.

As a matter of fact, I can think of about 5 cheesy dating directory sites that actually categorize the dating industry BETTER than Yahoo does. That's bad considering 1) the guy who did the categorizing was probably in his underwear when he did it 2 years ago and 2) no dating site recommendation on such sites is ever made according to the merits of the entries: its all about affiliate payout money. Yahoo may as well just go pay for play because that is what the mortals are doing whom the Yahoo Gods smiled upon.