Forum Moderators: open
A: Because anyone offering sound advice based on experience gets accused of self promotion and has all their posts deleted.
Q: But surely someone who knows what they are doing helping others through a free forum is a good thing?
A: I'd tend to agree, but you'll notice that most of the people that used to post helpful tips and advice have not posted here for ages
Q: Why is that?
A: I think that they found it a little disheartening to spend hours typing up helpful posts and see all their hard work deleted by the moderators
Q: So what is the point of this forum now?
A: It's OK if you want to find spam, or if you are bored and want to obsess about spyware or other people stealing your traffic
Q: But I want to learn about Advertising Sales & Affiliate Programs?
A: Sorry, we can't help. We're not allowed to say anything real.
No offnce, but WebmasterWorld moderators, if you are reading this, do me the courtesy of explaning your draconian logic on here, in public, so that I and others can understand exactly how it all works.
We've spent years helping people on here and used to find it a great place to come and share ideas - these days it's as dead as a duck. Seems like a real shame, don't we all agree?
First off, for some reason my name seems to be mentioned several times. Yes, I may have in fact irritated some people along the way, but I certainly never promoted anything. In fact, to date, I have never even had a URL in my profile or posted in a way in which I was to somehow benefit. Actually, I would guess that 99% of my posts are either annoying remarks or posts that benefit others far more than myself (people used to constantly ask me why I said so much)
Back to topic. I have not been posting primarily because no one is really listening and I may be slightly off but I am not crazy enough to post to myself! I happen to think a lot of this is because smaller and beginner affiliates now lean towards adsense because it is pretty easy to make fast money with adsense, and perhaps requires a different skill set (any web publisher can put up ads - now we have some that actually pay a bit). There is not a lot of "meat" in that forum, but I cannot say one way or the other if it is due to moderation - since I do not follow it that closely.
I think the problem with ALL affiliate forums is they either promote certain programs or they do not allow you to talk about any programs. The issue is, the Merchant IS EVERYTHING. Without talking about how specific programs convert, it is all meaningless. I can literally send the same exact traffic to two merchants and make $100 per 100 visitors from one and ZERO from the other. Of course if you allow people to promote their own stuff, no way can that be unbiased either. I don't have the answer but talking about specific programs is critical IMO.
The other thing with affiliate programs is the only way one can possibly succeed is if they learn how to attract visitors. Obviously there are quite a few forums here that address this that are very busy.
As for self promotion, to be fair, there are a LOT of people that have created their entire business around pumping up their online identity. And yeah, some do it right here. Michael Anthony happened to become successful first which is a bit more admirable than those who think they are like web forum rock stars, rofl...( disclaimer: I do not know Michael, am not involved with his stuff and cannot say much other than the couple times we spoke - but he seemed bright and knowledgable) I would not let anyone promote another forum on my dime - I get that, but perhaps we can figure out a way to talk about REAL PROGRAMS without crossing the line?
Now, if anyone wants to learn how to make a million dollars while drunk at the beach, please send a self addressed envelope to.... j/k :)
shut the * up and stop letting yourself be used as their mouthpeice
Ahem . . . thoroughly charming, LG. Allow me to pause whilst I return my tools of verbal evisceration to their storage case. For a moment I forget that I call you friend, not foe. ;-P
Leo, if there are jackals in the sheep pen, since when have jackals been able to transform themselves to sheep merely by bleating? That such persons - jackals, you say, Leo - were unable when challenged to state their case for an improved Affiliate Forum, with equal ease as I have, arguably speaks volumes. What's so hard to grasp about that idea?
Or maybe they - those cheering 'here here' - had the more noble motives and impulses . . . but they just couldn't articulate them? Me, baiting Leo.
There's a simple solution for those who can't quite get over their propensity for self-promotion in any forum, including an affiliate forum. All it takes is a simply "bye-bye" stickymail. That's always been an available respond to chronic rule infringers.
Now, having paused to respond to the peanuts being thrown from the gallery . . . anyone have anything else to offer in aid of a vision of how things could work?
Webwork trots off to retrieve broadsword and axe in preparation of invading France . . .
[edited by: Webwork at 12:13 am (utc) on Jan. 30, 2007]
[edited by: Brett_Tabke at 12:49 am (utc) on Jan. 30, 2007]
What might happen, I wonder, if the Google Adsense forum was merged with the Advertising and Affiliate section?
Reading over this entire thread, I would suggest that it is you who have offered no solutions, but stirred the pot...and for what purpose? You are not constructive, but destructive. Posts and attitudes like yours are like cancer for these forums.
Oh, and in case you haven't noticed, LG, never once have I denied any of the threads in question like you state I have. Instead I have brought them up many times already in this thread. Please re-read entire thread and then open your mouth.
Besides, he's just a simple minded inarticulate knucklehead, so my expectations are very low. ;)
[webmasterworld.com...]
Change moderator name to Fox
Change forum name to Henhouse
Change charter to Blank
[edited by: Marcia at 3:10 am (utc) on Jan. 30, 2007]
First, Webwork - affiliate managers are limited in how much thy can "teach" or share, simply because they have a fiduciary responsibility to keep their affiliates' business models confidential. Sharing beyond certain limits would be violating trust, and good ones establish relationships and are in a position of trust. One of the biggest assets OPMs can bring to a merchant client is the "following" they have. Maybe that's another goood topic to add to the list. :)
Second, that is a *fabulous* topic list for thread starters; you are an absolute master builder of good thread topics. But that isn't really what this thread is all about. Now...
Shawn, correct me if I'm wrong, but I think maybe a good comparison can be made between MLM and how CPA networks operate. They both function on the basis of recruiting and utlizing a downline, the difference being in the number of levels.
Webwork, let's just say that a rose by any other name is still a rose.
A CPA network is still a CPA network, even if they choose to call themselves something else. Yes, even if they call themselves a "school."
While networks like CJ, LS, SAS and PFX can be discussed per the charter, there is, however, no CPA network under the sun that would possibly be turned loose and allowed to conduct "whisper" campaigns in the affiliate forum here. And believe me, there are still some threads out there to be found that exemplify just that, with just a little bit of digging around.
So regardless of thinly masked surface signals, IMHO that's the crux of what this thread is all about.
[edited by: Marcia at 9:39 am (utc) on Jan. 30, 2007]
Shawn, correct me if I'm wrong, but I think maybe a good comparison can be made between MLM and how CPA networks operate. They both function on the basis of recruiting and utlizing a downline, the difference being in the number of levels.
You are wrong. MLM is multi-level marketing. Multi being the operative word.
People involved in MLM are getting paid to recruit salespeople into the MLM program.
That's not the case with the vast majority of affiliate programs.
However, you might have a point if you replaced affiliate programs with Google AdSense.
[edited by: Shawn_Collins at 3:54 am (utc) on Feb. 1, 2007]
Shawn, correct me if I'm wrong, but I think maybe a good comparison can be made between MLM and how CPA networks operate. They both function on the basis of recruiting and utlizing a downline, the difference being in the number of levels.
You are wrong. MLM is multi-level marketing.
I didn't ask about the difference between MLM and "normal" affiliate programs; but I was, quite honestly, making reference to what the perps in question here are trying to accomplish by pushing to bend the rules, beyond the heretofore level of laxity, in order to allow their 2-tier recruiting activities in that particular forum.
Maybe we should delve further into the intricasies of how CPA networks work, since in the final analysis, that is what this thread is all about - people who are running the equivalent of a CPA network (and calling it something else) conducting a whisper campaign within the setting of a non-commercial environment And then balking because their own self-promotionl activities have been thwarted by folks who do "get it."
That's not the case with the vast majority of affiliate programs..
[edited by: Marcia at 5:27 am (utc) on Feb. 1, 2007]
I didn't ask about the difference between MLM and "normal" affiliate programs
Fair enough - I was still thinking about the "normal" affiliate programs from earlier in the thread and didn't catch the reference to cpa networks.
But the CPA network recruitment/forum behavior thing is a different matter; and in this day and age, I think we need to take a second look at this segment - particularly when there are those who are masquerading as benefactors, who may appear to qualify under the definition, yet are utilizing a deceptive disguise, and are using questionable tactics for recruiting a downline to boot.
It isn't affiliate marketing as such, but how CPA networks function that needs to be further examined and disclosed, since that is what the focus of the promotional activity has been in this particular instance.
I personally am not particularly concerned about your particular brand of discrimination, although if it were to raise it's head in other threads/fora I would have to seriously consider my subscription position, but if you throw enough mud some of it will stick and not all of us (and probably none of us) are as demonic as you portray us.
I count myself as an AM and am proud of it. I consider Michael a valued and trusted associate and friend although currently I don't participate in any business directly with him. Would I participate in an MLM scheme? Perhaps, I am not hipocritical enough, nor in a secure enough financial position to say "I can't be bought".
I just don't think any point is being served by your current attitude. If you are not part of the solution you are part of the problem. It has been acknowledged by some fairly senior members of this community that the aff forum is not what it once was. It has been speculated upon that this may be a "sign of the times", others that the forum is over-moderated, regardless of where this thread started it has morphed into a discussion about what can be done to make the aff forum, more popular, more informative, more appealing, etc. Can we concentrate on that rather than trying to turn this thread into "AM bashing 101" or "what's wrong with your chosen form of am" or "A discussion of AM term and acronym semantics"?
Brad
Dave.
? Wouldn't a more balanced person call this a difference of opinion?
As Shakespeare once said, "There is nothing good or bad in this world, it is thinking that makes it so"
Similarly, there is nothing right or wrong.
As long as we're going off-topic . . .
Definition of a liberal:A conservative who's been charged with a crime.
Definition of a conservative:A liberal who's been mugged
In return, I will freely tell what I can, when I can and what I learn. This is a new subject for me.
Perhaps all noobs will agree. Question is, what needs to happen to make this so?
Webwork has provided an excellent list of ideas in this thread for appropriate AM-related topics which would promote lots of discussion.
Any of these suggestions - or new topic ideas inspired by Webwork's list - would help to kickstart the forum again.
Perhaps a new thread every three to four days until other former frequent visitors to the AM forum (or new visitors) start running with the ball?
And Richard Overlord, lol? How dare you say that this forum was better when more was allowed. What have you ever contributed?
Seems you were just some dude who came in here and wanted more, more, more help from others all the time - made enough money to buy a bigger trailer and that was that. What have you given back at Webmasterworld, not your mlm deal, BUT HERE? Maybe you can write a post about the way you generate landing pages for PPC, with specific advice that can be posted here, with no profit to be gained for you?
You might want to do this, because when your adwords campaigns inevitably fall apart, you are going to need folks to help you again :)
You can delete this but just wanted to give you an example:
Western Union has a site in Spanish at Linkshare.
IBS Direct (bibles) has a site in Spanish at Shareasale.
Now what would be the problem with that?
There was a time in the past someone asked a question, I answered it and had 3 things that were *********
One of the questions asked what people use for finding keywords. I said : w o r d t r a c k e r
I have to put it like that or it would be ********* out. What was wrong with that answer? Nothing. I could understand if the answer was an affiliate encoded link or somebody said "Here go to mysite . com for the answer" That I would zap. Not answers where people try to be helpful. Not posts where any good mod could see that it wasn't spam. When you do, people just move on. That's why it's dead.
>>that thread just disappeared
Not deleted, just on hold.
[edited by: lawman at 9:37 pm (utc) on Feb. 4, 2007]
Now what would be the problem with that?
No one instance is isolated, and there can be big headaches once doors are open to abuse. Not to mention hurt feelings like "Why was their post ok and mine wasn't?" Unless policy is consistent, mods have to deal with issues like that and there is no answer except avoiding it with equal treatment.
Great, I know some mods at the time didn't agree with that being edited out. Nice to see it's not anymore.
"Granted that you're well intentioned and just trying to be helpful, but the problem with that is that then the next guy comes along and asks about what's a good ink program or hosting program. Then come the AMs under assumed usernames, and the shills, and maybe even people who are friends with an OPM who manages such a program and recommends their buddy's program just as a friendly gesture."
That's what mods are for. Good ones can spot that a mile away. Right now they're bored out of their mind. Like I said earlier, 3 mods handling about 2 threads a day. Have some faith in their abilities to be able to spot that kind of thing.
[edited by: Brett_Tabke at 6:09 am (utc) on Feb. 5, 2007]
Someone asked if there were any programs for the spanish speaking market. They were told that people here couldn't post any because it would violate the TOS here and that thread just disappeared. They were told they could Google for the info. Now I'm 100% affiliate and I had answers for them. I'm not connected in anyway to the programs, wouldn't make 1 cent for helping them out but couldn't because of the TOS.
You can delete this but just wanted to give you an example:Western Union has a site in Spanish at Linkshare.
IBS Direct (bibles) has a site in Spanish at Shareasale.Now what would be the problem with that?
THEN - along come more wanting to know which furniture programs are good, and which apparel programs are good and which programs are parasite free, and which Christmas and holiday products and merchants are good, and downstream people start walking through the door that was left open to do some "sincere" promotion and self-promotion.
On a serious note, if the OP doesn't know enough yet about how to use a search engine to find things, chances are they're not at the skill level yet where specifics could do them much good. It isn't hard to figure out a few keywords to use to find them.
And on another note, it doesn't look like there's much in the way of competition for that niche's search terms, so that's a demerit for the AMs for not doing a bit of SEO to rank for them.
Why not tell the OP how to use a search engine to find affiliate programs in their niche? Then they're not babies needing to be spoon-fed, if they've been taught how to fish.
mods have to deal with issues like that and there is no answer except avoiding it with equal treatment.
I am aware of this argument. And I have my reservations.
Automated moderation which just generates false positives ends up creating overkill, as we have seen.
By all means auto-flag the terms and auto-censor them (if possible for all IP addresses except the one on which the poster is logged in) for the time it takes before a mod can get there. It's then up to the mods to make a decision as to whether the member suggesting a program or network has any affiliation or any ulterior motive. If they do, the post can be deleted, if not the post can be de-censored. That's what moderators are there for, isn't it?
Given the scope for abuse in forums and the spectrum of motives for posting I don't think that anyone can reasonably expect "equal treatment".
I have a small forum on my own site and there is a clause in the TOS which reads:
Commercial posts are generally fairly obvious and they will not be tolerated. Please, no commercial URLs - they will be deleted, so, at the end of the day, you're just wasting the administrators' and moderators' time. Don't quibble over why some URLs are allowed and others are not - at the end of the day, the moderators' decision is final.
In other words, it's recommended that you don't post URLs for commercial reasons, but whether you have done so or not will be decided by the mods.
And just because someone else's URL didn't get removed, doesn't mean yours won't be. The mods will not have to justify why one URL was removed and another was left. The reason is: "because they said so" - that is the consistent baseline.
Forums on the whole aren't democracies, they are benevolent dictatorships. (Think Singapore rather than London). If certain members don't like one forum, then tough, they can go hang out at someone else's forum.
Establishing "equal treatment" as a starting point and then using it as a justification for deleting all references (whether there is an ulterior motive behind them or not) is IMHO not the best way to go about things.
Automation isn't the same thing as consistency, and without a sense of conistency no one ever knows what to do or what to expect. There's chaos. Even parents are taught that as the very first thing in child-rearing.
Every forum community has it's own level of "busy"ness and volume, it's own collective personality, and its own culture. Where forum spamming is concerned, it isn't even outright URL drops that are the most insidious and offensive - those are easy to spot and easy to get rid of. The rest take judgment calls, and while those can't be automated, basic principles can be consistent.
It's manipulative whisper campaigns, which by the very sneakiness and the collective effort of their nature show disdain and disrespect for both moderators and other members, that are the worst kind of spamming. Regardless of forum culture, I personally can't think of any time or setting where that's OK and should be tolerated.
But back on topic, this is specifically about the affiliate forum, which is a beast of an entirely different species than other forums. And could be fertile ground for MLM recruiting activites if not watched out for and stopped. I think that's so blatantly evident it can't be denied. Ya, there are a few legit 2-tier out there occasionally - two levels away from the provider, but once you get past two tiers, and especially get up to counting 4 levels, that isn't two-tier affiliate, that's MLM - which sends out its own unmistakable signals, not the least of which are the persistence of offenses and level of aggression.
[edited by: Marcia at 7:03 am (utc) on Feb. 5, 2007]
Yet again, that's where a good mod comes in. You're either going to open it up and let the mods do what mods do. Or you're going to leave it the way it is, pretty much dead. It looks like pretty much dead. So be it.
That's what I believe this thread is about - mods doing what they need to do, with a dissenting voice apparently not liking it.
