Forum Moderators: open
A: Because anyone offering sound advice based on experience gets accused of self promotion and has all their posts deleted.
Q: But surely someone who knows what they are doing helping others through a free forum is a good thing?
A: I'd tend to agree, but you'll notice that most of the people that used to post helpful tips and advice have not posted here for ages
Q: Why is that?
A: I think that they found it a little disheartening to spend hours typing up helpful posts and see all their hard work deleted by the moderators
Q: So what is the point of this forum now?
A: It's OK if you want to find spam, or if you are bored and want to obsess about spyware or other people stealing your traffic
Q: But I want to learn about Advertising Sales & Affiliate Programs?
A: Sorry, we can't help. We're not allowed to say anything real.
No offnce, but WebmasterWorld moderators, if you are reading this, do me the courtesy of explaning your draconian logic on here, in public, so that I and others can understand exactly how it all works.
We've spent years helping people on here and used to find it a great place to come and share ideas - these days it's as dead as a duck. Seems like a real shame, don't we all agree?
a moderator of the advertising and affiliate forum should be selected because they know the advertising and affiliate field, not just because they stuck their hand up.
I can't think of one who's on board who was "chosen because they raised their hand."
There has to be a balance between shameless self-promotion and providing people with valuable information, specifics no less, that may, or may not, be related to your personal business activities.
Unfortunately, Johnny Carson passed away last year so Carnac the Mind Reader can't become a mod and therefore I think we can assume that mods aren't expected to be mind-readers. Or to spend an hour or so sleuthing on the search engines to find posters' (or their shills') ulterior motive for posting about their own stuff - who may be using different aliases anyway to cover their tracks.
Sureley people know their own niches the best and that's where the most valuable specific information is going to come from.
>>>Nobody said it wasn't. So are these, in case you haven't noticed.
Leosghost made an assumption that my forum is paid, in case YOU hadn't noticed. And Leosghost can come back and say whatever the little heart desires, that was the intent of the comment.
>>>So why in the world do you care if anyone visits WebmasterWorld? Don't think for one single minute that anyone has any fear of any two-bit forum poachers stealing away the membership. It's the act of watching them try to pull their time-worn, transparent tactics that's offensive, if not comical.
Yes, you're right, I've plastered the URL to the forum all over the place, can't you see it? Your observations are totally on point.
>>>Not paid, dunno where you thought our forum was a paid one
Again, please read carefully, that was for Leosghost.
>>>And FYI, WebmasterWorld is FREE and there is no paid forum. There's a forum set aside for folks who are supporters of the site because of their appreciation for the value freely given and received from thousands of members.
Wow, just wow. Supporters forum? Call it what you want, but using euphemisms to sugar coat what it really is isn't gonna work with me, or anyone else with some common sense. It's a paid forum, which Brett uses the "secret information" by affiliates to line his pockets. Is Brett smart for that? ABSOLUTELY! I'm not denying that, but it takes away from everyone who's not a supporter.
>>>Save the sales pitch for a more receptive crowd, would be my suggestion.
But the person to brought it up is a really good guy, and there was no reason to #*$! on him for it.
>>>And as a point of interest, many indies and a lot of CPA Networks often have higher payouts than the major networks (for the same programs) - and nobody needs an e-bok or a guru to tell them that.
So who's gonna tell all the newbies this? You? Anyone else in the forum? Anyone? It's like you don't care. Maybe you don't, so why are you sharing messages with us on the subject?
As it appears, people that are replying to this post with negative inflamatory comments are the problem with the forum.
[edited by: encyclo at 2:08 pm (utc) on Jan. 28, 2007]
[edit reason] tos#4 [/edit]
Leosghost made an assumption that my forum is paid
oh I know that it can be done ..I was retired before I was 30 with money gained from adverstising agency work in the days before PC's ( of punch cards and fortran ) ..multi tiers existed even then ..didnt like em then ..
as to now ..I do have some aff stuff ..some even in finance the OP's latest speciality ..but not in English markets ..and some others in software ..the latter make me 35 to 40% ..the former :))) ..and they are direct ..no middle men ..and no MLM nor schools needed to find them ..just my eyes ears and wits ..and a PC or 6 ( now ) and an ISP and some hosting and domain names that no one had thought about ..
not all of us that play in your area ( or others ..never all the eggs dans le même panier eh :)..make such a big deal out of telling of it ..then again I dont know as we are in the same area there ..I work direct with my people ..my business isnt selling secrets to the gullible ..even through free fora set up as fronts for what I really do ..
you aren't progress ..they carried ads for your kind of operation in the DC comics and magazines that existed when I was a kid ..and I'm old enough to remember what I was doing when JFK was hit ..I've seen you before ..in all your variants ..thats what makes you all so easy to spot now ..
Plenty of people share plenty of top notch information all over these forums, but specifics about programs are NOT necessary and are too easy to lead to abuse.
There are over 100 forums here that give invaluable information on every possible aspect of web development, SEO and website promotion, link building and usability, and writing copy and doing sites that convert, etc., etc., etc.
There's a whole lot more to it than just referring to any one specific program, it's a blueprint from start to finish. And a lot of us here like it *just* like it is, where we're not bombarded with commercialism left, right,up, down - and don't have to worry about getting sucked in by self-serving con artists.
In the past I've seen some big name "promoters" start to post. Funny thing is, somehow some of their posts magically disappeared into the netherworld. I guess when they discovered they couldn't promote and recruit for programs here, their altruitic helpfulness left for more lucrative commercial territory.
Don't get me wrong, there's nothing wrong with commercially oriented, specialty forums - if they're good ones and if they're honest about what they're doing. I frequent one myself. But every community has it's own "mission" and purpose, and its own demographic, and needs for moderation conventions (usually for VERY good reasons) that work for the particular community, and its own "group" personality. And what may be right for one isn't necessarily the right thing for another.
I really don't understand what the motivation could be for pushing a different agenda to replace established policies that work well and have for years.
Thanks.
[edit]Spelling errors and omissions[/edit]
[edited by: badone at 6:59 am (utc) on Jan. 28, 2007]
[edited by: encyclo at 2:11 pm (utc) on Jan. 28, 2007]
[edit reason] TOS#4, #26 [/edit]
It is simply not possible to have the type of forum you are dreaming of.
Not that there are none out there that exist for that sole purpose, but if anyone dreams of that here, they need to give up what they've been smoking and switch to cigars.
Now, would y'all like to deny that you've been edited at some forum out there for dropping an affiliate link to y'all's "free" forum?
I do not consider myself a "self-promoter" of any sort. I have a handful of websites (mainly about travel/hotel reservations) I run to make an income, but I do not run or own any affiliate program myself.
Once in a while, a newbie comes along and asks, "What travel affiliate programs are out there for me to sign up with?" I'll post a response, "Well you have A, B, C, and D available as choices."
Next time I stop into the forum, I found said moderator has deleted "D" from my list without explanation.
I asked the Mod why he deleted that selection, and his only response was that the program "was not well known to him."
Exactly what criteria are there for a program to become "well known enough" to be posted here? I don't own the damn program, I'm just an affiliate trying to help out a newbie that posted a question. And who is the Mod to "decide" that the affiliate program is "not well known enough" to be posted here?
Perhaps the Moderator had some ulterior motive to delete mention of the program? Ever consider that possibility?
How unpalatable....
I was thinking I should share what good stuff happened to me after I met and worked with a couple of folks here but after reading this thread it looks like my comments would be categorized as a "testimonial" so I'll refrain from giving out any details... so people won't second guess what my motives are...
often I do think about what many have commented.. ie. we should be spending more time making money for ourselves... than helping others... or we should not share out too many ideas so we don't create competition for ourselves... maybe that's what we should do here.. share only enough information that's already out there.. and let the newbies find out for themselves... maybe that's the next evolution of the adv/aff forum...
although.. that sounds boring.. cause its useless... maybe that's why its dying... oh wait.. let me rephrase that "slowing down..."
PS. let me step into the shoes of the protectors of the code for a moment.... there's an upside to this... less competition better for our pockets... censorship is not always a bad thing...
Strange - those messages seem to vanish from the forum...
Once in a while, a newbie comes along and asks, "What travel affiliate programs are out there for me to sign up with?" I'll post a response, "Well you have A, B, C, and D available as choices."Next time I stop into the forum, I found said moderator has deleted "D" from my list without explanation.
Long-time, trustworthy senior members have expressed their views, which aren't the same as whiners and/or those who have a personal agenda; but then again, maybe that forum has been too loose after all, and needs to tighten up a bit.
Long-time, trustworthy senior members have expressed their views, which aren't the same as whiners and/or those who have a personal agenda; but then again, maybe that forum has been too loose after all, and needs to tighten up a bit.
I'd be very surprised if that decision was yours to make but....
Better yet, close the forum and your problem goes away....... talk about throwing the baby out with the bathwater......
this is sad.. no wonder.
I was thinking I should share what good stuff happened to me after I met and worked with a couple of folks here but after reading this thread it looks like my comments would be categorized as a "testimonial" so I'll refrain from giving out any details... so people won't second guess what my motives are...often I do think about what many have commented.. ie. we should be spending more time making money for ourselves... than helping others... or we should not share out too many ideas so we don't create competition for ourselves... maybe that's what we should do here.. share only enough information that's already out there.. and let the newbies find out for themselves... maybe that's the next evolution of the adv/aff forum...
although.. that sounds boring.. cause its useless... maybe that's why its dying... oh wait.. let me rephrase that "slowing down..."
PS. let me step into the shoes of the protectors of the code for a moment.... there's an upside to this... less competition better for our pockets... censorship is not always a bad thing...
As always with such subjects on a public forum, we have had some silly arguments and name calling, which I think are best ignored.
Brett, you said...
"If you can suggest a policy shift that can allow the types of posting you dream of, please do so"
This is an excellent question. This single sentence shows me that you may well be prepared to listen, if we can come up with an acceptable compromise.
In an ideal world, we would have a forum that remains outside the supporter's area so that it attracts the newbies for whom $150 or so is a lot of money - these are the very people that need help, so to alienate them from it would be counter productive.
I'm not alone in being one of the more respected WebmasterWorld members as a result of my posts here - I know a few others who used to post regularly and have now left, including such experts as Shak and mfishy.
So I suppose the question is this - how do we add credence to our advice without saying anything that can be viewed as self promotion? If I say that I earn a fortune then this is regarded as spam. If anyone else says that they know I earn a fortune then this is viewed as a biased testimonial from one of my friends.
I enjoy being part of WebmasterWorld and a really enjoy posting here - it's very rewarding to feel that my advice is helping others to get to where they want to go.
Perhaps you could issue some guidelines that we could adhere to for the future, on the understanding that our posts will not be deleted provided that we stick to the rules. I know that the regular TOS may cover this, but there are too many grey areas and as a result many highly popular, super helpful and motivating threads full of free professional advice from experts get deleted.
If expert WebmasterWorld posters help newbies to succeed through their efforts here, these newbies will in turn suggest to other newbies that WebmasterWorld is a great place for help and advice. That helps build your community into a place with an excellent reputation for solid unbiased expert advice.
Without WebmasterWorld, I personally wouldn't have gotten to where I am today. But I don't think that it's the same place that it was when I joined, particularly in the Ad sales and Aff Programs forum, and that was the motivation for my original post in this thread. You have a have a fantastic resource here, but the increasingly arbitrary way in which the moderators discharge their duties is making it less valuable than it could and should be.
A forum like that one is a two way process. In other words one is happy to give advice, but is at the same time looking for (occasional) tips and advice oneself. If ones gets little, read nothing, out of a forum, then one participates in it less (read, not at all).
Of course it may just be that we are all getting older and more crotchety
4. Always be respectful of other users, the system, and the moderators. (...)
26. Claims of action, flames, and calls to action against any company or person will be removed.
In order to allow the topic to continue, it is important to keep the language decent and avoid the personal attacks out of respect for everyone involved, thanks.
The forums are not a venue for advertisements in any way. It will be the sole discretion of Webmaster World and its moderators as to what constitutes an advertisement.
Please do not drop promotional urls, signature files, nor specifics that would lead people to your site. Signing your name is fine, however commercialized posts or resume signatures will be edited. We tend to err on the side of caution to protect the integrity of the system. Affiliate based URLs are not allowed anywhere on the system
Self promotional URL drops and whisper campaigns are strictly forbidden within the forums and will be edited out.
BTW here [webmasterworld.com...] is a thread in which newbies are getting advised ..well and in detail ..and no one has ssen the need to mention their income nor their cars ..nor to praise any associates or those with whom they have a business relationship off WebmasterWorld as someone to listen too ..
you and the members of your organisation are not the only experts here in aff work by any means ..you are the only ones that seem unable to resist self promotion at every step
I'm not alone in being one of the more respected WebmasterWorld members as a result of my posts hereor the inevitable mutual backslapping which I expect to follow ..
Shak and mfishy have not left they ..still post ..but as they are making enough money without it ..they do not find it necessary to post in order to recruit ..
as to Brett giving you special rules ..Why ..everyone except you and those with whom you are associated has no problem with the situation as it is now ..
like I said earlier ..if your own fora and sites are not getting as much traffic and new blood to keep your multi tier systems going ..hang around the SEO and SEM fora more ..post less ..and improve your position in serps ..then you'll now longer have to worry about WebmasterWorld and trying altruistically to help it along ..
it's doing just fine in your chosen field as is
edited typos
[edited by: Leosghost at 3:53 pm (utc) on Jan. 28, 2007]
Oh and I can't even begin to count how many people have posted messages such as "CJ sux" because they cheated me/they cancelled my account/whatever reason. (Myself included)Strange - those messages seem to vanish from the forum...
I suspect that the reason is the same as why many of my comments concerning the ethicalness or IMO lack thereof of miva get cut ..legal reasons to protect this fora from problems ..not necessarily because the mods admins or owner disagree or agree with you ..
I get cut more than most here at WebmasterWorld ..usually in retrospect I can see why ;-) ..I can certainly see why Mr Anthony does sometimes feel the scissors ..so can he ..and his associates ..
The last six months of last year (last time I ran the numbers), we had few admin/mod actions than at any time since about 2001-2002. There has been a massive decrease in the number of problimatic postings. That is both because of education and because people just get it. Sour? We've never been more open, accomodating and welcoming. Mods have never felt less like policemen and more like educators than ever before.
To that, we have essentially tried to go as hands off in the aff forum as possible. The main time we step in is when things get heated and legal lines are brushed up against. You can say freds fried chicken tastes bad, but you can't say freds friend chicken causes food poisoning. You can say they have a poorly operated aff program, but you can't say they steal from their affiliates.
> aff forum <snip>
lol. Ya right. If you are taking advice in that <snip> forum, where aff program operators have full time employees trolling, and have hired numerous paid posters and off site bloggers, then I can understand your problem with an independent and unaffiliated forum. It is a strange unimaginable concept that a forum *wouldn't* be bought and paid for.
> have posted messages such as "CJ sux"
I would bet the pink slip to this site that some of those posts were done by competitors are at the request of competitors and/or their affiliates.
> webmasterworld aff program
Because we don't (at this time) feel the need to compete with our members.
[edited by: Brett_Tabke at 5:00 pm (utc) on Jan. 28, 2007]
I do make money from aff programs and am interested in the subject.
Hence I would be interested in the aff forum here if it offered me something from time to time. And indeed I am more than happy to offer advice, to those that really appreciate it.
I am not wishing to enter into the politics of who does, or does not, troll the aff forum here. But I do agree that it is dead in the water.:(
Promotional spam? It would certainly have the appearnce of promotional material, but it might not be in its intent. Someone may actually be willing to share.
OR
Lunacy, for giving away the goods?
One thing I'm willing to conclude, after several years of exploring the affiliate space, is that those who know rarely speak in any detail . . unless they are the affiliate manager. Ironically, when an AM does 'give away the goods' it's not uncommon for the affiliates to act aggrieved.
Affiliate marketing - as forum subject matter - is problematic. Either the subject matter well vetted looks promotional, or it IS promotional, or people are reluctant to share affiliate marketing knowledge of material value.
Given those 2 limitation what's left to talk about? Beginner stuff, for the benefit of any new arrival? How often can a forum go over that territory and keep the larger audience interested?
I've been visiting and reading affiliate forums for several years. My observation is that the best affiliate forums serve as a sort of affiliate social club, where people of like mind gather to exchange greetings, state grievances, debate marginal topics, posture a bit, pass the time and, sometimes, in a small but nonetheless generous ways, dish out little tips and hints. (Did I miss anything? ;) The ratio to educational signal to chattiness tends to be tiny.
Affiliate managers have the run of the roost in some (most?) affiliate forums. There's value in that since they dish out news of new promotions, tips about what's working (to a degree) and respond to direct questions or comments. I just don't see that - having AMs show up and start posting as in other forums - happening here, as that would significantly change the WebmasterWorld model. My take on the WebmasterWorld model is that's it's an effort to be educational without being promotional. Besides, if the affiliate manager is any good he/she is already working directly with the affiliates.
Affiliate marketing is a challenging space to present as an educational venture. That said, I vote to laboring to not turn WebmasterWorld's Affiliate Forum into another affiliate marketing forum, as that's already been done and - in the manner in which it's being done 'successfully' - the existing examples or models are entirely a bird of a different feather.
What I keep hoping to see is a greater effort, in the WebmasterWorld Affiliate Forum, to take on the challenge of being educational in the affiliate space, without the promotion and without the constraints of self-interest of any kind.
Anyone here willing to take on the challenge of giving up the goods, in the affiliate marketing space, devoid of all aspects of self interest? Devoid of both "I can't share this because it might cost me coin in my pocket" AND "I do this to increase the coin in my pocket"?
Now that would be the start of an entirely new breed of affiliate forum. Sounds like lunacy to me. The kind of win-win lunacy I find very appealing.
[edited by: Webwork at 6:42 pm (utc) on Jan. 28, 2007]
Yes, but the minute they do so the whole community asks for the poster to prove that they know what they are talking about. If the poster does so, by reference to their own achievements, it's seen as self promotion by the mods and it gets deleted.
Looks like we just have to let it die then.
I don't hang out in affiliates so I don't know if it's the same, different, or dead. And I don't know your motivation for your initial post, so I gave you the benefit of the doubt and take it at face value.
But then, in response to what seems to be a well thought out post by Webwork, you seem to be ready to throw in the towel and administer last rites.
So now I'm somewhat confused as to what the real issue is. Is it that you really care about the forum, or is there an ulterior motive as some members whose judgment I generally trust have indicated.
Anyone here willing to take on the challenge of giving up the goods, in the affiliate marketing space, devoid of all aspects of self interest? Devoid of both "I can't share this because it might cost me coin in my pocket" AND "I do this to increase the coin in my pocket"?
Yes, I (and others) already do this in the WW Advertising Sales and Affiliate Programs forum and I will continue to do it.
I prefer to talk about methods, (though I will talk about my own experience with specific programs where relevant).
I would very much like to see the forum revived with a primary focus on methods and the individual experiences of various publishers who have experimented with different methods - while avoiding discussing the specifics of niche (and where necessary, programs).
If it hadn't been for that forum (and one another forum elsewhere on the web), I would never have persevered with AM, never have succeeded, I'd still be a wage-slave and I certainly would not be a WW Supporter.
"Anyone here willing to take on the challenge of giving up the goods, in the affiliate marketing space, devoid of all aspects of self interest? Devoid of both "I can't share this because it might cost me coin in my pocket" AND "I do this to increase the coin in my pocket"? "
Yes, but the minute they do so the whole community asks for the poster to prove that they know what they are talking about. If the poster does so, by reference to their own achievements, it's seen as self promotion by the mods and it gets deleted.Looks like we just have to let it die then.
Brett, do you think this could be addressed?
I recently started a post in the Aff forum regarding ROI and what one considers a good ROI to be? I was genuinely intersted in the subject. It was entitled, "How good is your ROI?". It was a hot thread and many folks posted great information. However, when someone posted and merely mentionned that I had done well because of my affiliation with him, all of a sudden the thread was deleted because we were accused of "tag teaming" for promotional purposes. Hello? Apparently the thread was good and interesting enough to raise to HomePage status, but once a few self-righteous, trusted, old school forum posters didn't like what they "percieved" as promotion, it was shut down. How censored can you get?
I learned the ropes here at WW. I became a supporter because of the valuable information here. Much of it I learned in the Aff forum. To remove the Aff forum, or move it to the supporter's area would keep other newbies from learning valuable information on how to get started AND succeed in affiliate sales/marketing.
It's true that the forum offers almost no good information anymore. I can say that truthfully. I go in every so often to see what is being discussed. It's all "empty" content...in other words, completely useless and NOT educational...just banter. Due to overmoderation we have taken away some of the best threads in my opinion, and you have kept many of the best in the business from posting.
EVEN if we posted purely educational content to help others, which we do, we'd be worried that it would be deleted because of someone's unfounded "suspicions" as to what our motive could be. I mean, why/how could we possibly post anything useful unless we wanted to benefit from it somehow.
Anyways, it's unfortunate what's happened. Just my two cents and I CAN'T wait for this post to be ripped apart by Marcia and Leosghost based merely on the fact that I don't subscribe to their limited and biased points of view.
Dave.
Anyways, it's unfortunate what's happened. Just my two cents and I CAN'T wait for this post to be ripped apart by Marcia and Leosghost based merely on the fact that I don't subscribe to their limited and biased points of view.
Since their points of view are limited and biased, let's just ignore them.
Any point of view that I have isn't limited and biased, it's uninformed. :)
I've said before that I accept Micheal Anthony has a lot he can contribute. Instead of telling people what to do (requires their prior acceptance of his "expertise") he can just help them look in the right direction without stating anything at all.
OK, I'll now re-word the above.
Richard Overvold, isn't is the case that the really great men don't need to "prove" they know what they are talking about? Aren't the truly great ones the most humble, most self-deprecating and least self-absorbed?
See, what I did? All questions. Far less bossy and school marm-ish.
Wouldn't people sit up and be more amazed at your knowledge if you help them find it themselves? If you opened the door for them rather than threw a book at them? If you lifted the veil for them rather than told them to open their eyes? If you asked the questions that got their brain in gear rather than shouted instructions out to them?
If you have a need for others to recognise your "superiority" then you're letting ego get in the way of your conversation. If you maintain that such recognition is vital for you to help them then you're less of the great man you purport to be.
