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I think the idea for my first hub was pure genus (patting myself on the back). I fought real hard for it but in the end gave up my job over it. The problem was it was outside the box of what SEO was back then. The group I was working with wasn’t able to fly with my vision and so much of it was in my head, developing and I was asking them to take a leap and work with me almost on faith alone. I did get my first hub and I wish I could go back to it now, with what I’ve learned since then and remake it.
The original idea was terrific I think for larger SEO companies with a multitude of unrelated clients and a program of optimizing for them using off site domains. With Google it was obvious that linking was crucial. Now I know that many companies in this position have come up with terrific ideas that they use quite effectively without a hub. I just saw the hub as the perfect solution in my mind to this linking and interlinking dilemma. Particularly if you wanted to stay on theme, which is difficult when working with such a variety of unrelated subject matters.
There was also the question of how to do this without it being a link farm or a link program, which at the time was all the rage but didn’t connect to the theme theory I was then developing. This was all previous to finding Brett’s theme ideas or finding Webmaster World. Without these resources I was really winging it. My first hub didn’t utilize canonicals either and in fact it was someone from the team I was working with who suggested them originally, just as I was leaving that position.
Fortunately for me when I left I was given the opportunity to create my first unrestricted, unchallenged dream hub (at a considerable loss in income). This was a totally themed hub, different from what my original quest was. I will probably never get the opportunity to develop my dream SEO hub so I’m just going to explore it here with all of you SEO experts and you can take it or leave it. Consider it my Christmas gift to all of you that may find interest with it.
I’m doing hubs mind you, but they’re all very specific to a specific topic or industry. What I’d like to explore is the ideal SEO hub. I’m starting this new discussion in the research forum because I think it applies better here.
This initial post is a little teaser so if you’re interested stay tuned.
One more point. Please ask questions. Add your comments. Disagree with me. I don’t want Brett to boot me out because I’m carrying on a monolog here. :) Plus, this is all about research and I don’t have all the answers and probably do have as many questions as all of you so if we explore this together maybe you’ll help me get the one step closer to my ideal SEO hub.
Suffice it to say that I see no way any search engine could legitimately ban or even penalize a legitimate hub, if it’s been structured correctly. I’d be interested, as the discussion goes along, for us to talk about the possible problems as well as the solutions.
Many of the problems I see presently with crosslinking is this problem of putting all your links to all you sites on the bottom of your page. It’s like a closed circuit. A hub allows for this crosslinking to open up, become legitimate and themed. It doesn’t make sense to ban or penalize something that first of all does make sense, that facilitates the flow of the web, and provides content, resources and information.
The hub I’m suggesting here for SEO companies is I think the most difficult hub to put together, unlike the niched specialty hub, which I believe is much easier simply because of the narrow themes. Great point glengara and I’m glad you brought it up. I’ve actually been giving it thought lately.
4eyes - I have so many regional ideas for hubs. Think I'm going to go into that here as a section because even if it's not a regional hub, adding region to it opens the possibilities I think for additional linking and content.
One way you can begin to think about it is that each section is a mini hub. I use canonicals to create them but they can be separate domains. The point is that as we build them they should be able to stand-alone. If you can create your section so that an editor at ODP would consider it a complete product that offers unique content and resources, suitable to it's topic or theme, think of the additional linking strength you can gain for it through where you gain exposure. I plan to talk more about where and how to submit the hub but I don’t think it hurts to have these submitting ideas in mind as you are building the hub.
One think I do while researching is open a spreadsheet and call it - whatever submission – and as I find likely link partners or portals and such that would work for this particular project – I add them to this page and later come back to it to begin the process. This is particularly helpful to me while researching for a hub. Each section then has it’s own column and I can later add the date I submitted and the date it’s indexed. Some of these possible portals and such may find themselves in each or a few of the columns, depending on what they can do for that section if linked.
When creating a hub I’ve found it’s important to be thinking and working on multiple tasks and ideas at the same time and developing a way to stay organized through it is really important. I mean you may be doing all the work or overseeing others and it’s easy for something as large as this to get away from you.
www.SEOhub.com
money.SEOhub.com
health.SEOhub.com
etc. I then add down the column each page of the section as it develops. This really helps me to begin to visualize the hub. It also helps when naming pages as they come up. I may have a client that offers health insurance that I can then find a way to tie into both the money section and the health section and crosslink the two pages I develop for that company, to each other. Using the spreadsheet like this helps me both stay on task, visualize the project in terms of the actual addresses I give each page, and begin to see how I will be eventually linking the hub together.
I think most of us see the straight-line pyramid style linking with themes and hubs, thanks to Brett so clearly spelling it out for us. What I do see folks having trouble with is the vertical linking and how to do it so it stays as pure as possible for themes and makes sense. I hope we can continue to explore that here.
I look at every section as if it were a mini hub in itself. First we determine what the theme of the section is about and in this case we’ve determined it is money. Now money is a very broad term so we look at our clients that we’re promoting and we determine the finest point where they meet. I narrow my themes as tight as possible. Of course with a SEO type hub we’re open to the possibility of adding additional clients, related to our theme, and need to keep that in mind as things develop.
For simplicity sake let’s say we have only three domains set up for each of these clients.
Let’s give the tax consultant these domains for each of these themes. [note: these are not meant to reflect actual sites]
*www.SEO-tax-consultant.com
[all about promoting the consulting portion of the business]
*www.SEO-tax-books.com
[all about the books and resources that the tax consultant sells]
*www.SEO-tax-speak.com
[all about speaking engagements and workshops]
Let’s give the credit card company these domains for each of these themes. [note: these are not meant to reflect actual sites]
*www.SEO-credit-repair.com
[all about using credit cards to repair bad credit]
*www.SEO-new-credit.com
[all about using credit cards to establish new credit]
*www.SEO-consolidate-debt.com
[all about using credit cards to consolidate debt]
When looking at these six domains, and even though there are only two actual clients it helps me to consider each domain a separate client, where is the meeting ground? How can we bring these six themes together to the finest point?
We can only do it by breaking each down into all the little pieces of what it is and finding a point where they come as close to possible in meeting while keeping in mind that you want to be able to add additional clients to this section. I mean what happens if you suddenly get an insurance company or a financial investment company? Developing a hub can actually give you ideas of new clients to approach, all in the effort of creating a well-rounded hub. :)
I know this sort of thing works, but at the end of the day you are - in part - attempting to increase link popularity, by granularizing your topics and increasing your presence.
Wouldnt the reporting mechanisms of the SE's soon spot this and drop the URLS?
I submit to Inktomi for E.G. via IneedHits, and their terms and conditions state that you are not allowed to use thier service to just increase your link pop.
Just wondered what your thoughts are - i.e. not on the technicalities of the proposal, but getting it into the engines and getting it to stick over the coming months.
Cricket.
I'm not aware of Inktomi paid pages having anything to do with link popularity; it's basically optimize a page, pay for a page, and get it listed. It seems page dependent, not even near the sophistication of evaluating a site and its internal components, and its inter-relationship with the rest of the web as some search engines do.
This is point 6 of Inktomi's Anti Spam Policy, and if you do it - you could be banned.
Creating inbound links for the sole purpose of boosting the popularity score of the URL.
The thing is, if they dont do link pop of some kind, then why would they put this?
Crosslinking within a www.domainx.com is ok for certain, but creating a matrix of sites with a theme - even if the content is good on all the sites, is surely breaking that rule and asking for a ban.
I personally believe that we should be able to do this, as there are so many phrases out there now which arent hubbed or themed that it would take a thousand years to outspam them all.
For instance I would love to create a little 4 domain set up which had three stone polishing related sites pointing at my main one and then sub them all. Would this get me banned? Is it un-ethical?
Cricket.
Well, getting to the Hub of the matter, pun intended, the heart of the internet is links; without them, no internet. So links are important for more reasons than just boosting position.
At a purest level, we should link to a site based on our perception of that site's value, and not with any thought of personal gain. As they say, "A gift with a price is not a gift."
However, in reality we do link to other sites in an effort boost our perceived value and therefor our Serp Position. Is this unethical? Hmm, what colour grey do you like as this is not a Black and White answer. Just keep it to a minimum in relation to your overall linking strategy. Kind of like "White Lies".
On a practical level though, it is very easy for engines to map links and find link circles that seem designed purely for promotional purposes. A links to B links to C links to D links to A. If you are doing this then you will get caught. However, if you are providing a service to your visitors by having a well structured directory of "on theme" links, then you are adding value to the internet as a whole and will be rewarded in ways you never thought of.
Kind of a philosophical answer, but we are talking about ethics after all.
Onya
Woz
Within a site, basically for user convenience. To over-simplify, if I go to a site looking for a gift, a text link shows where the toasters are because it says so. Once I'm there, I don't necessarily want to have to keep going back to the homepage or a site map to find other items. It would be easier if there were a link right there to the microwaves and crockpots.
I wouldn't mind going back to find a whole different section, say art and collectibles, but once I'm there, having to go back and forth to another page to get to other related specific products like paintings, prints, ceramics - that would be an awful lot of clicking.
It's like in a department store, where all related items are in one department, easy to find because they're right near each other. OK - maybe it takes taking the elevator to get to another floor for another department, but once there, again all related items are close - like being closely linked with the other related topics or pages on a web site. Just makes it easy to navigate without wearing people out with clicking.
What is CMS? Not familiar with the term.
Onya
Woz
I really need to get back to this discussion. Sorry if anyone felt I dropped the ball. It's been a busy time.
Some of the problems I see with folks having trouble with their linking are:
1. The most crucial one is closed linking. No matter how large a unit you create, if you aren’t linking out to the web and if you do not have unique links coming in to various parts of your site (hub in this case) then you are a big mark on the map as a closed circle. That’s a big problem and I think a particular problem for SEO’s trying to link up their cloaked pages. I believe that if the hub is created successfully then you alleviate many of this closed linking networks.
2. How you link internally can be a big problem. Every page isn’t linked to every page, at least not visibly (and I’m not suggestion hidden links here). I put an enormous amount of effort into developing an internal linking strategy and that includes what type of linking I’m going to use. One site may contain specific text linking which is always with an ultimate goal in mind for themes and authority. I’ll use image links for specific reasons and now, especially for larger hub sites and navigation issues I use javascript. It’s not a haphazard guess either but a well though out plan. I believe too many people don’t take the time or effort to structure the strategy of their internal linking and instead of reaping the potential benefits they stomp on their own feet.
Now Brett’s brought an interesting issue in Multi urls for one company [webmasterworld.com]. I made my response there and I think we may all want to discuss this more. I bring this up in light of my next comments.
I structure nearly every site and particularly hubs with canonicals. I have a tremendous amount of success using this structuring format and until or if I see problems with it I will be the first to report. In my case the canonical structure has helped me develop clearly defined sections of content, specific to a theme, which aides me in my efforts to stay pure with my linking. If the linking isn’t done well and for specific reasons then, and especially in the case of a large SEO hub, you can create your own nightmare link farm. Believe me when I say you want to steer clear of that.
I’ve said it before and I know it sounds really simplistic but don’t link unless it makes sense. Stay away from linking just to link. Think it out and link with a strategy in mind. This isn’t spam. This is well thought out planned strategy and I think it makes the web a cleaner place. You can’t be penalized for creating something that adds to and contributes to the web. By doing so you give the opportunity for search engines to provide the most relevant content. That’s if your intent is to provide relevant content. I mean what’s the purpose of all this effort if your project is not supported with the appropriate content. I certainly hope that’s understood in context of this portion of the discussion.
Welcome GarryBoyd, an_untaken_nick and cricket and Charles.
Thanks for jumping in Marcia and Woz.
I'm working on some new posts but I must say I prefer this interchange and communication. It makes the whole thing more interesting for me so please continue to participate.
Up do now I just have a Portfolio page on my site with a description and keyword text link to each. It would be great if I could create a small hub or directory to boost their popularity (if I've understood you Paynt).
My sites are very diverse (although 5 of them are travel related). Others are things like:
- Aromatherapy
- Motor Racing
- Event Management
- Coaching
- Kosher Catering
- Security (body guards)
So, can a small group of sites like this derive any kind of help from your approach to hubs?
To explore your questions kapow I think, yes those really varied themes can come together. It’s a question though of common themes. The only way I found to make this work is to break every element down to it’s finest point. That’s how I explore site development as well as how I develop my keywords, so this work isn’t wasted. Sometimes in the process I find new opportunities that I may not have explored or considered previous to breaking the whole thing down. Everyone probably does this already so I’m sure it’s nothing new in optimization.
For me it’s finding those common elements. What is it that can bring all this seemingly unrelated themes together? I like an_untaken_nick’s suggestion earlier for the money terms and money management. That was good and a common theme, which leaves plenty of room to explore new opportunities.
Look at your themes kapow. Can you see any avenue that can bring these concepts together?
- Aromatherapy
- Motor Racing
- Event Management
- Coaching
- Kosher Catering
- Security (body guards)
Right away I see entertainment, lifestyle, hobbies, recreation. Even though your themes are of course about more than that, in developing a hub of this sort it’s all about the common theme that can tie them together. Even bodyguards can be brought in through the security element. It’s odd but it can be done and I’ve seen much worse combinations. I mean event management is a great focus. I would play around with these like I’m writing a story that has to make sense and I have to use these items.
It’s a puzzle and I love that. It’s a puzzle that has to have a logical outcome. Coming up with the content for this combination could be a lot of fun. I know this doesn’t give you the answers but I hope it stimulates you into thinking about it more and opening yourself then to interesting opportunities.
What we do is to setup DNS with a wildcard, for example
@ IN A 198.4.228.200
mail IN A 198.4.228.200
* IN CNAME @
mail (name of mail server) has to be defined because a MX record cannot point to a CNAME.
If you have a static IP and this type of DNS then anything.yourdomain will come to you.
Say your domain is test.com and it resolves to 198.4.228.200 then so would flowers.test.com and beer.test.com, or webmaster.world.is.cool.test.com.
Now, after you have the static IP and DNS setup like above then all you need to do is have a program strip off the header and find out what the user typed in and generate the proper site. I make my index page a SSI page that includes on CGI exec that handles everything.
So, a simple setup like that combined with a database can produce a very large number of canonical names without the need to do anything to setup up the canonical.
Also, this can deff be used to point multiple unlimited domains with unlimited canonicals.
I am nearly finished with a project to create doorway pages this way. If we can come up with how to theme these no related sites together then I belive that my solution is the best technical way to accomplish it.
My 2cents ;)
Nick Powers
These technical questions come up all the time with regards to canonicals. It's terrific to be able to point folks to examples of how hosting companies are dealing with the issue. Thanks for your contribution.
Wouldn't that be an example of bringing several unconnected links together to form a hub?
Sure, a hub could very easily be a city or a state or a country. It's easier to figure out I think, if the thing that is in common is obvious, such as a city hub.
Even if your company is not service oriented most web companies will sell their product to anyone regardless of the users region.
