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Does anyone have any experience of the use of hidden layers - used to offer up some good spider food. I am not thinking of anything excessive, just a much needed H1 tag with a single keyphrase.
I could do with comments on the following:
1. what is the best way to use hidden layers?
2. how safe is it to use them?
3. what is the html syntax used?
4. what else should I consider?
I believe that it is wrong for search engines to place so much emphasis on H1 tags because they are so damn ugly. I understand the thinking behind it, but I would NEVER use them in the normal way i.e. visible. Therefore I am forced to look at alternative (devious) ways to use them - to compete with ugly websites. Does that make me a bad person?
Any comments/help?
Regards, Stavs
I do know how to set up hidden layers it is
~div id="Layer8" style="visibility: hidden"~
replace < with ~ in case it hid the text, usual div style rules apply as to using it on a internet facing site then if there is some way of making the layer visible they might buy it. Otherwise might be thought of as spam
I am concerned that if spotted by an agressive competitor it could be used to get the site banned. I can't take that risk with most of my sites.
However, layers can be used to present the text in the order that you wish.
As a less risky approach, why not reduce the size of the H1 tag with CSS and position the layer at the bottom of the page as a 'byline' (whilst the layer presents the HTML at the top of the page).
I figure using it that way won't get me in trouble with the SE even if reported, and won't look too bad to anyone using something that doesn't support layers (such as wireless devices).
h1 { display:none;}
I like that one. ;)
Going to try to apply some other code I read earlier in another forum to combat this.
Thanks very much
h1 { display:none; margin-bottom:0em}
The margin part is thanks to Tedster who started a very interesting forum here [webmasterworld.com]
Beautiful ! :);)
GGROT - you are a top man!
And thanks to the other contibutors - much appreciated.
No hidden layers neccessary and I'm as happy as a swine in shiser.
Regards, Stavs
Cloak your css file. Make it external at least, few engines even spider it.
As far as morality, if you have an informative site about blue widgets and you put a h1 blue widgets /h1 tag at the top of your page, you are just doing the same as optimization, except improving the page layout. On the other hand if you use this to hide text that isn't relevant or otherwise listed on the page as a major topic, then its spam.
It is not spam because I am not fooling or deceiving anybody. I am simply helping the search engine to index my website correctly – in accordance with its subject matter.
By saying that this technique is spam, you are making a bold statement indeed and your rationale in this thinking is flawed IMO.
If you want to expand on what you have said, then tell me what area of SEO is not spam - using your rationale.
Use an example of a client who would like to use a lovely graphically intensive splash page as his index page, which is attractive and grabs attention. As this would prove less than useless to the search engines, he decides to design his site in such a way that the search engines can understand its content, i.e. by making the page content-rich and textually themed towards the subject of the website - does that make him a spammer?
I think not. The original suggestion made by GGROT is a superb example of using CSS creatively and having the imagination to solve a basic but annoying problem - by thinking laterally. I, for one, am very grateful that GGROT was kind enough to share it with us.
If search engines want to see ugly h1 headings, then GIVE IT TOO THEM - but NOT the user, there is no need to offend your users with distasteful website design.
Its innovative thinking like this that draws me to these forums, not the single-minded and unsubstantiated statements to which you allude.
Why not go the whole hog and cloak?
>The original suggestion made by GGROT is a superb example of using CSS creatively
is the word not deception?
If you put the two together you can get something that looks nice for users and spiders and is essentially the same. I would consider this along the same lines of having a javascript and non-javascript version of the page and each loading dependent on the user's settings (without the user even noticing). Its 'cross-browser compatibility' if you simply consider a spider as a user with a different browser.
On the other hand, it can definitely be USED as spam, and likely is in some cases. With that in mind, if not done tastefully, you are likely to get reported by some unfriendly competitor. Also your traffic will be less targetted, etc. All of these things are good reasons not to use this as a spamming technique. The same reasons why cloaking is not necessarily a spamming technique.
I do agree with you that if one user is shown something different in terms of content from another(even if the other is a spider), then you've got spam...and the css can do that. But changing the format in which that infomation is displayed is fine. Its just like the table trick of placing content before the navbar. Meta tags are not always spam simply because the user never sees them, are they?
Google et al. will decide that for us.
Use the technique on a test site, post here that you have so done, and watch what happens.
Might work, might not, but I am not going to try it on my customers' sites, I am not that brave even with someone elses' money.
Now, if no-one had mentioned it on a forum read by all the best SEO's AND most search engines, ahhh, well thats a differant matter :)
We are on the line, the edge of the trade, for me anyway :)
I see it like this; when a qualified lead arrives at your site and finds
site #2, nice image 'with the ugly H1' tag <add> nicely formatted with css
</add> they will not give two cahoots if you have a 'Graphical Logo Type
image' or a 'nice graphic' and correctly formatted text (which looks better,
responds faster and is SE friendly) they will look further into the site.
I do not need to go (and I don't believe anyone does) down the route of
hiding things, to my mind it is just not worth the risk and is unnecessary
to achieve an attractive site and high ranking and with SE's
The argument seems to be around this amazing graphic that entices people who
would normally hit the back button on the first sight of text ?
If you put the two together you can get something that looks nice for
users and spiders and is exactly the same
Posting these sort of solutions (hidden H1 tags) can surely lead 'newbies' in the SEO field off on the wrong foot, you may argue that 'your industry' is tough... huh! dosent make the slightest difference.
The arguments for using this or any other 'hidden trickery' are flawed or weak (oooh.. protect my code) at the best.
When I take on a SEO project if the serps are full of hidden text, stuffing, redirects I know my job is going to be quite easy ;)
I'll say this again:
YOU DO NOT NEED TO RISK CLIENTS SITES OR USE TECHNIQUES THAT GIVE THIS INDUSTRY A BAD NAME TO ACHIEVE TOP RANKINGS
We have global clients on that statement alone
Mike
I believe that in in years gone by the logic of SE's using the H1 tag to boost relevancy was solid. However, the web has become more sophisticated and user expectation has increased.
When you expect a user to make a credit card purchase from your website, you better make sure that your website doesn't look like its been designed by an amateur. The website is your shop front and as such you have to present an attractive interface that people can relate to - people who are used to seeing the likes of Amazon.com and other big hitters. The design of those sites sets a tone/pattern and a user expectation. Users want to trust their personal details with large reputable companies with customer service resources and dedicated privacy and security systems.
Now, I have no way of proving this but if I placed a whopping great H1 tag onto the top of my sites, I would expect customer confidence and ultimately sales to diminish. I say this based on my own buying behaviour - I am a careful consumer.
My 'shop fronts' are just that - shop fronts, a facade. We are a small company (3 partners), but the quaility of our two websites paint (hopefully) a different picture. I am competing with the big boys using my wits and not an endless pool of advertising revenue. To do this, I am forced to play the SE game - and it is a game. The H1 tag is the ONLY tag I am hiding and it contains a single keyphrase - there is no repetitive 'stuffing'.
In principle, I beieve there are many uses for cloaking and hiding which do not constitute spam. As I read recently from a company offering cloaking software;
"Please Note: This software is not intended to be used to spam search engines, it is to be used to protect your pages from theft, and to optimize pages for specific search engines for which you intend to show relevant content".
Sounds reasonable to me.
The spam issue is a huge debate and will rage in these forums for a long time to come.
I think a lot of SEO's sail close to the wind when it comes to gaining an advantage. I think everyone has their own techniques which are applied to different circumstances. Most SEO's IMO would not hide, cloak - whatever - if they didn't need to. Some fields of interest are more competitive than others.
Its not your original statement particularly that bothers me - you have a god-given right to express yourself and I apologise for my brash remark earlier.
What concerns me is that you appear to be taking an almost moralistic highground - and suggesting that those that resort to these techniques are somehow a lower species of SEO - and that you know better.
> YOU DO NOT NEED TO RISK CLIENTS SITES OR USE TECHNIQUES THAT GIVE THIS INDUSTRY A BAD NAME TO ACHIEVE TOP RANKINGS
1. How do you know what techniques need to be employed in a specified field to achieve TOP rankings until you try it?
2. If you fail to rank a clients site in a particular SE using the 'safe' methods and the client is saying, "Get it up there or I'll find someone who will" - What then? Many businesses don't even get off the ground without risk - its a fundamental facet of capitalism.
3. I don't think we are giving the industry a bad name. I believe that the creativity that is spawned by the big hitters of these forums is the reason why clients will part with their advertising revenue for the services of an effective SEO.
Horses for courses.
If I had a client approach me with an SEO contract to promote a website which only sells a chemical called 'Isobutomol 300' I could get him to the top on all the major SE's without any risk.
However, if another client approached me with a website selling popular music CD's and he expected to be top doggie without any risk whatsoever, I would gladly give him your email address;)
All SEOs are going to be sailing close to the wind as you put it.
My personal view is that you have to keep the client informed of just how close to the wind you will be sailing with his site. Most of our clients are business people and will be anxious to pursue any potential edge they may get over their competitors. Many of them will also have been involved in a bit of dodgy dealing in their time too.
At the moment it is no great worry to a medium sized company if they get kicked off one search engine for a while, it doesn't quite make the broadsheets yet. This may change in the future :)
I will say that getting a good rankingusing perfectly fair tactics is the line to take for most clients however some arenas are now so competitive that you need to take that extra step on occasion.
>Now, I have no way of proving this but if I placed a whopping great H1 tag onto the top of my sites, I would expect customer confidence and ultimately sales to diminish. I say this based on my own buying behaviour - I am a careful consumer.
If you read my posts further up... css can make these headings NOT 'whopping', are you seriously saying you would not buy from a site with text on it? .... geez
>What concerns me is that you appear to be taking an almost moralistic highground - and suggesting that those that resort to these techniques are somehow a lower species of SEO - and that you know better.
Fair point... I am trying to get across to people entering this field that you do not need to adopt these techniques. SEO has a name as a black art, and I object to this 'branding' it is not a black art, it is a skill set.
>This software is not intended to be used to spam search engines, it is to be used to protect your pages from theft, and to optimize pages for specific search engines for which you intend to show relevant content".
Well they would say that wouldnt they?, most cloaking I see is pure and simple serp manipulation... granted its 'on topic' but its still serp manipulation however on topic it may be.
The acid test is always, how will the engine see it? Will it be a problem, if the answer is yes, I dont do it.... simple
And yes I have lots of sites in top 10 positions on competitive keywords
Its an interesting debate and one I am passionate about. :)
Mike
I would gladly give him your email address please do
All of these things are virtually invisible to the user, yet are designed to give to be noticed by a spider. You can't optimize without showing the user something a little different than what you show the SE.
Finally, lets say that you use an external css file, and in it you change the font size, border size, style, etc of the h1 tag. Let also say that you dont make it look like normal text, but rather a kinder looking heading. Is it not true that the user sees text that is styled differently than the spider would expect a h1 tag to appear? You are in effect showing the SE one thing and the user another. How is this any different than hiding the h1 text and showing a graphical header or a header with capital first letters instead of all lower case keywords(or above all your nested tables html)? It really isnt.
And to answer your question, I have done this before on a number of sites. The h1 tag above most of the html helps improve rankings on google, ink, alta, fast, and others. I've never gotten banned for it and I don't cloak css(or anything else). I've rarely ever seen a spider even look at my css, although I monitor spiders less religiously than most people here. If the engines start spidering my css files after reading this forum looking for a match to my css snippet I posted here, they will never find it either. My sites have the css done slightly differently with the same effect. So I see no reason to stop.
In answer to your questions:
Do you ever put meta keyword tags on your pages? Yes the are allowed by SE
How about meta descriptions? See above
Do you use robots.txt files? See above
Do you name your images based on keywords? See above
Do you have alt text on your images that isnt designed with the imageless user in mind? Yes and No, my alt tags always make sense
Comment tags with keywords? No
Do you request your reciprocal links always with the www (or always without)? No
Noframes text on a page which uses no frames? Yes see above
[i]External javascript/css where the external file is not used more than once on the site? No
All of these things are virtually invisible to the user, yet are designed to give to be noticed by a spider. You can't optimize without showing the user something a little different than what you show the SE. Agreed the spider reads the code
Finally, lets say that you use an external css file, and in it you change the font size, border size, style, etc of the h1 tag. Let also say that you dont make it look like normal text, but rather a kinder looking heading. Is it not true that the user sees text that is styled differently than the spider would expect a h1 tag to appear? You are in effect showing the SE one thing and the user another. How is this any different than hiding the h1 text and showing a graphical header or a header with capital first letters instead of all lower case keywords(or above all your nested tables html)? It really isnt.
Yes it is, it is a subtle differnence, based around the fact the user does not see anything if you hide the H1
The h1 tag above most of the html helps improve rankings on google, ink, alta, fast, and others. Agreed, the difference being the user can see mine :)
I've never gotten banned for it. Nor have I, and nor will I, but you might. That is the difference..... risk, IMO not worth it
Mike
Mike, I think I know the hidden meaning behind this statement. I hope I am wrong.
why?
So are h1 tags, so are css, so are nice looking pages(if you are smart). However being deceptive with hidden headings or any of the other hidden methods (of which I don't use them all either) that I mentioned is not allowed for by SE's.
<i>Guns don't kill people, people kill people</i>
> why?
It might be fairer to you, Mike, if you explain the meaning behind the statement first so I don't misrepresent you.
> When I take on a SEO project if the serps are full of hidden text, stuffing, redirects I know my job is going to be quite easy :)
stavs, you understand correctly, do you want me to spell it out? OK, I turn em in, It used to bother me, not anymore
This is business.
There is an uprising... argh, argh, me lads
SERP = Search Engine Results Page
