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Just checking up on the competition in the SERP's and noticed something I haven't seen before.
It was a SEO site specialising in a specific industry.
ie www.web-based-widgets.com
The content (only about 10 pages in total) had a "widgets" twist but it was a blatantly a SEO site (just taking the angle of how SEO can help the "widget" industry).
I followed a link to their other site, another SEO site, but one that focused on the customers of the "widget" industry and offering the same services and citing the same examples of how their clients could save money.
On the whole they looked like a fairly decent SEO sites - to the point and not making any outrageous claims.
But my concern that is the SEO is targeting a specific industry.
Now, I know all of you would say, "but they guys just targetting a niche market, thats fair business" and I would agree.
My point is if this is the way that SEO is going, then will we see all industries eventually targetted by SEOs?
Will we see the SERP's for any major keywords saturated with SEO sites dedicated to that industry (or more likely to have a site dedicated to that industry....)?
I cant see what the SE's could do about it either. As long as the SEO site is not spamming and has content related to keywords, then it's fair game really? The only solution I could see would be to ban SEO sites completely, but that in itself is unfair, as SEOs have every right to promote their services.
I just thought id mention this and see what others thought.
Cheers
JOAT :)
If a client doesn't want to spend a lot (basically read - has very limited budget) do you think that I am going to go the extra mile and expand their content and link them appropriately and as dedicatedly as I would with a client that understands the ROI and is prepared to pay?
I don't think so.
but don't you all think it is ok for the guy with the limited budget to be coming up right under the guy with the larger budget for marketing and investing in their web presence?
But I wouldnt expect someone to do it for him!
Its entirely possible for small low budget biz to have much better content than big biz. Therefore big biz requires a larger budget as there is more to be done, so they are both on equal an standing.
I think on the whole, though is that the general concensus would be that each client is taken individually, based on their requirements, budget and the work that is necessary, right?
JOAT
ps im not a SEO....im a jack of all trades ;)
At least for a commercial, sales conversion is the dividing line, not ranked position, and not click-throughs.
Although SEO'ing may not be defined in this fashion, a client getting less referrals (because of lesser positioning) doesn't necessarily get less sales.
The search (keyword) the easy part of SEOing and this is only a very small part of enticing people to buy.
In the end, two competiting companies linked, partnered, allianced, or merged are going compete at a higher level than a stand-alone company who avoids competition at all costs.
Excellent discussion JOAT, glad you started it.
Some of the posts here seem to put me in a different light and I don't think anyone who knows my ways would think that I am any sort of con artist or search engine spammer or whatever.
I do however have an accute interest in the subject matter of this thread and just wish that everyone would stop jumping to conclusions.
jackofalltrades posted initially about "SEO site specialising in a specific industry"
Now my problem is that I do specialise in a specific industry and all client do well, but the *problem* is in the profile of the client sites, it is getting ridiculously high rankings. It doesn't overshadow on specific terms but is picked up on cross keyphrase terms...
I was wondering if it would be best to kill it outright or to just get it off my domain and make a totally seperate promotional domain to help users find these folks.
Looking at all the small directory and industry specific portals it seems to me that it is getting harder and harder for the individual websites within certain industries to get up there.
What are you thoughts further than what has been said already?
Are you suggesting that two of your clients would be in more of a business relationship after your optimisation services?
The only relationship between two optimised sites, would be a link back to your site and the search terms they are optimised for.
I agree with you when saying that the main factor is sales conversion, but in a lot of cases it will be directly proportional to visitors to the site. Agreed, it is possible for no 5 ranked site to convert more sales than number 1 ranked site, but thats to do with other marketing issues.
>(JOAT - I don't really know if we are on the same discussion or not).
Yeh, Im all over the place. :)
>Excellent discussion JOAT, glad you started it.
Im not. I hate threads that are more than 30 posts long. Im very lazy and cant be bothered scolling down that far. ;) Although I am nearly at post number 300, so Ill persevere!
JOAT
Can you clarify what the problem is here? Sorry, I dont understand.
Theres no suggestion at all that anyone is using nefarious techniques to rank sites well (no doubt there are a few spammers lurking though, but thats their problem...). Its more a general discussion about the industry as a whole.
The thread has gone way off topic from my original post, but that was the intention....I didnt really have a query or a question it was just to get a few opinions on the matter! :)
JOAT
I am wondering if it is best to get rid of this page on my site altogether and forget about it or whether to set up a new site for this industry and promote clients fully from it as a seperate issue.
It's kinda like getting to be a small directory or portal and seeing as I had no intentions of setting up something like that.
From an SEO point of view it is driving me nuts as well as I have all these people contacting me to fix up their websites from within *that industry*.
What's a person to do! :)
The medium lends itself very well to it.
Is your problem that you dont want to become too specialised and deal with lots of clients in the same area?
JOAT
In monitoring traffic I see that visitors are moving through these pages on my site to the client sites to find what they are looking for so that is ok.
I don't know, but I just think that the way search engines return results for different reasons (i.e. random words joined instead of phrase etc) is not optimal and doing what I do naturally is often pumped out by folks in an artificial way just to get results...
Sorry, I am raving on...
Are you suggesting that two of your clients would be in more of a business relationship after your optimisation services?
If equal opportunities exist for clients with shared interest (this can be anything) Yes.
The only relationship between two optimised sites, would be a link back to your site and the search terms they are optimised for.
Growth is the key here. In an extremely competitive market, it is hard to get into the top 30 let alone #1. A link strategy may be best.
In considering your first post - the SEO (as I am doing now) setup a site for 2 or more clients (a small amazon.com if you will), the SEO can maintain the site, (or a managing clients), all products regardless of whose they are, have share potential.
I agree with you when saying that the main factor is sales conversion, but in a lot of cases it will be directly proportional to visitors to the site. Agreed, it is possible for no 5 ranked site to convert more sales than number 1 ranked site, but thats to do with other marketing issues.
But JOAT SEO is part of marketing, and an SEO that can assist in helping sales, is more valueable to the client than just ranks & traffic.
"SEO company sites within specific industries start to become a real problem for the relevancy of their SERPs, the SEs will deal with it."
I see it is a concern and I ain't trying to decieve anyone.. not trying to get position, not trying to do nothing!
booo hooo. you get it?
So, you see.. what should I do.. trash it... go into hyperspace and move on up to a real promotional portal away from my services domain..?
[edited by: quiet_man at 4:08 pm (utc) on Nov. 20, 2002]
I think that although your site isnt what the user searched for, but can use to find what they want, then it is a relevant result.
My original point was that if 10 other SEOs started competing in your market and the SERPs filled up with all SEO sites, then the results wouldnt be relevant.
Quiet Man,
I think youre right, if it did get out of hand, then the SE's would deal with it, but the question is how?
In terms of an industry as a whole, SEO is going the way web design did a few years back...now every man and his dog cn setup a website fairly easily (not a good website, but thats beside the point).
In a while we may start seeing homegrown SEO (as HTML editors will probably be upgraded to create custom SE friendly pages), which could result in a marring of SERP's, so again the question is what will the SE's do about it?
JOAT
ps now im at 300! ;)
I am wondering if it is best to get rid of this page on my site altogether and forget about it or whether to set up a new site for this industry and promote clients fully from it as a seperate issue.
Relationships is credibility. For you and for each client.
It means that someone can contact them directly to receive a first hand testimonial, which beats
"excellent service, my ranks are up 1000%".John Mills
New York, New York
...may be credible, may be not.
From an SEO point of view it is driving me nuts as well as I have all these people contacting me to fix up their websites from within *that industry*.
Charge more for new clients... gets rid of the riff-raff.
I think the services that a SEO offers differs from SEO to SEO.
I take it from your comments that you offer more than just altering the text to stick in keywords, making the site SE friendly, etc, but offer a fuller, business / marketing development package?
In that respect, yes i would say having the leading results cooperating with each other in a business arrangment would be a good business move.
But, as quiet man says, there are dodgy grounds in terms of how the SE's will view it. Plus the additional factor of the SE's (OK lets say, Googles) tendancy to change on a monthly basis (not a bad thing...just makes it hard to plan business strategies...whats good one month is penalised the next).
Excel,
Nah, you shouldnt float away into hyperspace. Just do what youve been doing. This is just a hypothetical arguement and noone is telling anyone else what they should do with their biz. If anything, all we can take away from these forums is food for thought!
JOAT :)
In terms of an industry as a whole, SEO is going the way web design did a few years back.
SEO is more amount web designing than web design.
A good site design can go to the top without much help.
A bad site design, has no hope without starting from scratch.
All web sites are not created equal.
1) There is a difference between an SEO/designer/marketer using clients to bring traffic to their sites as an entry point to gain more business and a SEO/designer/marketer displaying their work with pride and linking to a client base as a natural association.
2) If a SEO/designer/marketer is doing well in an industry they should set their own pricing and take on only jobs that are not in direct competition to other clients.. i.e. cannot find a USP etc.
3) Let the search engine work out what they want to index or not index and if all is in order in backyard there is no need to fear.
4) Keep eye on this anyway because we all know that some good folks get flushed with the bad apples on occasion even if they are totally innocent.
Im sure ur all familiar with the product life cycle, well web design (as a service you pay for) is declining.
Most major companies have in house developers, most small businesses can do it themselves. Granted it doesnt mean that they are very good at it.
That just leaves companies that can afford to pay for it but not hire a fulltime webmaster.
SEO will go the same way.
Right now companies will pay a lot of money for a good SEO. But not many have in house SEO's.
As the public (and the business world) become more aware of the services of a SEO, then there will be more people doing it inhouse and the industry will decline.
Just my opinion though, but thats the way i see it going in a few years.
More competition - competitive pricing - price reductions - more affordable - mass market - everyones doing it.
JOAT :)
It's the holistic approach that will win in the end :)
If you don't have the skills, network or outsource at the foundational level of a web presence. Or pay double your initial fees and more.
Getting the departments of tech division, marketing, management and public relations into the same room is a good idea.
I take it from your comments that you offer more than just altering the text to stick in keywords, making the site SE friendly, etc.
Exactly.
SEO in the sense of keywording is relatively easy. There are many beginners here that became members and with a few questions, a little thread searching, a few more questions have come back and indicated "IT WORKED"!
SEO is the easy part. Taking that exposure which you have developed and actually doing something with it is much more difficult.
An SEO's client who didn't understand how to developed site traffic from SE is not likely to apreciate the differences between targeted and untargeted, informative seekers to potential buyers, hot leads, warm leads, a first time visitor, a return visitor, a customer and return customer.
If 100% traffic in & 0% sales out means there is something wrong. Does the client now need a traditional market consultant to come in who may not know or understand SEOing or anything about web markets, hire a traditional marketing department who again may not be able to produce anything more, forget about it or stick with you and hope?
SEO today may very well be about - ranks, traffic, and being web savvy, but if this is the extent of it, then it's just blind faith that once a visitor is at a site they will buy?
{added- I also think it is very cute that when I type in a three letter acrynom (WebmasterWorld = WebmasterWorld) it interprets to it's full name all automagically}
[edited by: excell at 5:03 pm (utc) on Nov. 20, 2002]
Couldnt agree more....its also the fun part though! :)
Ive got to say my preception of the services offered by SEO has changed somewhat over the course of this thread.
From my experience, a SEO is responsible for identifying keywords, intergrating them into content, making the site SE friendly, and registering the URL in the usual places. Then the site goes back to the client.
From what Ive read here, would i be right in thinking that a lot of SEOs offer a full range of business services, not just the SE stuff?
JOAT :)
We have seen companies spend $ on web design/development that is *totally* and *absolutely* non user or search engine friendly.. then they pay $ on SEO and get somewhere in the sort term or get banned and then go to zero..
What they need is an open attitude between departments and developers/designers/marketers (on & off line) all working together at the foundational stages.
It's rare but the savvy companies will get it eventually.
I did a combined studies degree at uni, where i chose marketing and information management. I was the only person on the course to do those two subjects together.
It was in our final year they finally brought the two subjects together (I had to sit thru basic marketing and basic IM for a semester cos it was a core module for both the courses! And it was dull...).
I tried to do my dissertation on a combination of both subjects, but there was noone qualified to mark the repsective areas, so i ended up leaving and getting a job.
Even though i only got into web marketing 6 months ago, it was the area that i was aiming for since starting Uni, and have maintained in all my jobs that there hasnt been enough cooperation between marketing and IT depts.
I think this threads brought up some food for thought for all of us, SEO or not, in the necessity to successfully embrace all areas of a business in order to maximise the benefits from each (and, of course the profit! :)).
JOAT
You would be correct. Traffic is the easy part. Making a site viable is the service that makes clients happy. The focus has drifted from sheer traffic to targeted traffic that converts to sales. From Keywords to Conversion. :)
The more you can offer the client, the better chance you have of atttracting clients to begin with, and then you want to keep those clients. I can't think of a single client with one successful site that doesn't want another one. If the SEO is involved in positioning, targeting, branding, writing copy, tracking and increasing conversions, PPC campaigns, print ads, ezines and newsletters, etc, the client gets to relax and concentrate on running the business. The goal for the SEO is the success of the business, not merely getting top spots in the SERPS. Educating the client is part of the process.
Every SEO has been asked to get #1 spots for certain clients. Some clients feel that the entire success of their site hinges on a few keywords being placed well in the engines. When you can educate them a bit, and point to the bottom line as proof that your market plan works, you gain their trust and confidence and they become long term clients. WOM referrals start coming in, and everyone succeeds. Gotta love those Win/Win situations.
I briefly touched on educating the client, but that aspect of the business is extremely important. Quite a few clients come into the business, read about SEO, and think meta tags, keywords and position are the only thing they need to be concerned with. It's often a time consuming process to make them forget the bad information they may have been relying on.
As for targeting a specific industry, I think those SEOs will quickly find themselves running out of prospects. No-compete clauses are becoming more and more common and with good reason. The upside of that, is that you can charge a fee for not competing.
