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look for the follwoing user agents in your access logs:
slurp = inktomi
googlebot = google
good luck!
Looking at the home page title more clearly, there's obviously been some sort of database glitch... The title is truncated and pasted together twice, definitely not what's on the site... nor is the description close to what's there.
Otherwise, the rest of the pages look good and are a welcome addition. Wonder what the home page glitch is about.
These pages are free ones.
UPDATE:
After writing the message above, I did another test at MSN and results are back to normal (I think)... all sites mentionned above are not there anymore.
Remove your pair of Inktomi glasses and look again.
They have finally acknowledged that the direction they were going was taking them nowhere but down. They have gone back to the last situation where life was good to them and have started over from there.
They have put up every page in their database that's still alive and ranked them, to what they believe, is according to some relevance. This, for them, is square #1.
The PPI listings will be spidered every 48hrs, the others every ??.
The SEO now needs to revise any low ranking pages so that when they're spidered in 48 hrs. they push down the free listings. Now your PPI pages are competing with all pages not just the other PPI pages. However, after the free listings get their infrequent spidering, you could find those pages back on top of yours again. Then repeating your process to SEO them back up.
The problem now is that the current results are full of old spam pages. To SEO your PPI pages back up to the top means spamming your own pages too. Unless at some point INK cleans out the spam pages their search results will be nothing more than a meal of spam sphagetti.
Will INK filter the spam out? Probably. If/and or when they do at some later date and, in the meanwhile, you have had to spam your PPI pages to get back to the top, you'll be booted out too. It means you take the risk of spamming or resign yourself to where you now are.
Personally, I don't think they give a rat's about the PPI customers anyway. No more than LS cared about their one-time-fee paid customers. They've both milked their respective cows dry. PPC is the new wave, not PPI. To stay alive they need money. Watch for "new product releases" that are PPC oriented. In the end, the wallet will rule.
There are some pages added in the new update that no longer exist (these page are dated of 1999!)
Paid pages are below the free pages (1-28: free - Paid ones start at #29)
Something wrong with the update, definitively.
By the way, I see the problem with msn.ca ; msn.com seems to be Ok... but I'm not sure.
Glad to see you noticed our major cluster release. We're extremely proud of it for a number of reasons. It's the largest, most relevant and freshest by far.Let us know what you think!
Well we are letting you know, can you explain the findings here?
Even GoInkGo doesn't like the update?!?!
Now your PPI pages are competing with all pages not just the other PPI pages. However, after the free listings get their infrequent spidering, you could find those pages back on top of yours again. Then repeating your process to SEO them back up.
It seems to me that Inktomi realized that a pure paid approach without backfill merely leaves the entire search field to the competition. Google found themselves in a position to claim more search integrity. Then Google started attracting searchers Big Time, because most objective observers discovered that Google was right (that was two years ago; things may be changing by now). Inktomi skipped this step, and now they're trying to pick up the pieces by using deep crawls and ranking algorithms on unpaid content from the web.
There are only a few outfits that can do coherent deep crawling and decent ranking too. Google, Alltheweb, and Inktomi come to mind. If you can do it, then you can compete. If you can't do it, you muddle about (e.g., AltaVista). Most searchers are not searching so that they can buy your widgets.
From the point of view of the search engine, if you can do it but you don't do it because of a mindset that is more focused on some particular revenue model, then you end up losing to the competition and you also end up without even an excuse.
Paying for crawl inclusion is essentially in the same category of paid ads. The FTC didn't address it on this level, but I don't see a whole lot of difference. If you pay to get included, it's because if you didn't pay, the searcher wouldn't be looking at your link after doing an Inktomi search. Your link appears in the SERPs because you paid.
How is this different than what the FTC was talking about? Why shouldn't this sort of inclusion be conspicuously tagged in the SERPs as "paid" or "sponsored"?
Everyman: I thought the FTC did mention making pay-for-inclusion clear as well? Don't have the doc in front of me though. I didn't pay as much attention to that since Google doesn't do PFI. :)
But I've spent several hours studying the difference between Inktomi and Google with respect to the sensational statistics I've been able to compile over the last two days. There's something as sinister as payment for placement going on, and it goes by the name of PageRank.
Both Inktomi and Google have something like 55,000 to 90,000 pages of mine in their database. It depends on the technique used to count the pages.
I track referrals on two levels. Level One are the fewer than 1,000 pages near the surface of my PR 7 site. These are book reviews and essays, and some special topic pages. From the PR 7 passed down from my home page, and from external linking, most of these surface pages have a PR of 4 or 5. Google referrals have been steady at anywhere from 32 to 42 percent of all referrals for these pages. No one even comes close to Google. The closest is around 5 or 10 percent.
Then there are the deep pages, Level Two. Too many thousands of pages means that most of these end up showing PR 0 on the toolbar. Perhaps about 20 percent are lucky enough to show a PR 1. There's no penalty involved; it's just that I ran out of PR to pass around, and there's almost no external linking to these pages.
Starting yesterday, I had a real slap in the face about the importance of the low PR on these internal pages. Two days ago, Google was steady at about 48 percent of all referrals for these deep pages. Google had Inktomi beat by a 4-to-1 margin. Then starting yesterday, Inktomi had Google beat by about a 2.2-to-1 margin. Nothing changed at Google. And we're talking thousands of hits per day, so it's not like I'm running stats on a tiny sample. At the same time that this dramatic shift occurred on the deep pages, there was NO change in the advantage of Google over Inktomi on the surface pages.
Here's my analysis: In both Google and Inktomi, having the name in the title is very important. But the difference is that while good on-page techniques are helpful with both engines, the fact is that on Google, whatever I achieve with good design gets pushed back down by a low PR for that page. This doesn't happen in Inktomi.
So here's the bottom line: PR works against the little guy. Little guys are not allowed to have big databases. Period. Because even when they manage to get the whole thing crawled (something I'm finally beginning to achieve with Google, after nearly two years of effort, since the crawl is also PR-driven), their internal PR is so crummy that it amounts to discrimination.
Only big guys can have big sites that really work well in Google. Little guys should stick to sites with pictures of their cat Fluffy and their dog Spot.
This is such a fundamental flaw with PageRank, that it amounts to Google's Original Sin. PageRank reinforces the powers that be. PageRank discourages power-structure research. PageRank challenges us to overthrow it.
I'm in love with the Inktomi's PFI program (and with the company overall :) ) and I hope that it will last for years ! :)
But the subject of this thread is not about the PFI programs but about the Inktomi's database update...
I think that this 'update' must be re-updated... :)
So... we are waiting for your input, Inktomi ;)
Go Inktomi GO ! (Thumb Up) :)
Of the searches I examined, a lot of them come up ahead for no reason except that they bought their positions.
redirect-west.inktomi.com
When you move your mouse over the titles of the sites, these pages are paid ones.
P.S. Me, I saw a preference to FREE pages... not paid ones. Like I told in a previous post, 1-28 are free, paid pages start at #29 and free pages continue to be there; but the first paid one is at #29. I'm sure (at 99.8% :) )that link popularity don't play any role for the sites located in the 1-28 range.
Not really, a large number of our PFI pages were optimized strong enough to maintain their respective 1/2/3 positions despite the "downdate". In fact, a lot of competition has been pushed way down or even off the first page so our conversions are now higher.
Thanks for all of the feedback. Given the slew of both positive and negative thoughts, I wanted to reinforce the following points:
(1) Our PFI program does *not* impact ranking and never has. Our first priority is quality results. There seems to be a lot of anecdotal evidence presented here on both sides of that debate. But paid inclusion customers are only ensured that their content is crawled and refreshed every 48 hours. The content acquired via our paid inclusion programs enhances the search experience by ensuring that the index includes high-quality deep Web content and that all content is up-to-date.
(2) GoogleGuy is right - the FTC letter does mention PFI. However, their recommendations are that search engines clearly disclose when some of their results are PFI (which we do) and that they highlight any PFI results which impact ranking (which does not apply to us). Our legal folks have examined the FTC document and we believe that we are in complete compliance.
Thanks,
Inktomi.
...search engines clearly disclose when some of their results are PFI (which we do) and that they highlight any PFI results which impact ranking (which does not apply to us). Our legal folks have examined the FTC document and we believe that we are in complete compliance.
The key thing is that the payment to Inktomi doesn't affect ranking. Of course, we all know that PageRank has a tremendous affect on ranking in Google, but that's another issue for another forum. I think Inktomi actually comes comes out cleaner in the comparision, once you see PageRank as a form of currency. Rich people have more money, just like big business has more PageRank.
To comply with the FTC they had 2 choices.
(1) highlight the PFI listings
(2) neutralize the PFI listings and make it a free-for-all
Choice (2) results in many PFI listings to drop so low that they're worthless. That forces 2 choices on the PPI customers.
(1) SEO every low ranked PPI page back to where it was (and again and again whenever they decide to re-shuffle the search results)
(2) upgrade from the nickle/dime PPI program into a "sponsor" program
As only deep pocket customers will make choice (2), expect a new "PPC oriented product" released to "help the rankings for the budget-minded".
All this praise to them about providing "pure unadulterated search results" is bull. Do you think INK did this because they all woke up one morning and saw "Jesus" ? Or perhaps something do with making $$$ and keeping themself in busine$$ ? This FTC ruling was used to make beneficial change$.
Coincidental that Monsieur "Inktomi" came out of the closet a few days before this big change? This is an INK public relations man and nothing more. Where was he for the last 6 months when we had problems that required answers of substance? The same place he'll be whenever we need answers of substance.
Inktomi once enjoyed the position as the premier search engine on the web. True, in an increasingly sophisticated environment, they became challenged with inferior technology (content based ranking) that undermined the value of their product (their results became ridden with spam) and left them weak in the face of competition based on more sophisticated technology (link analysis ranking – Google). But those issues could have been addressed with some good engineers, some money and an overhaul of their technology.
It is no coincidence that Inktomi’s decline in their share of the search market coincided with their move to PFI. People use search engines to get information, not advertisements. When they cut back on their crawling, they cut back on their relevance and value to a market seeking information relevant to their searches.
The history of advertising has been riddled with attempts of advertisers to promote their ads as information. It was in the late 70’s or early 80’s, as I remember, that this practice blossomed in the magazine industry. I remember “Readers Digest”, as a particularly blatant practitioner, but for a couple of years it was everywhere. You are reading what you think is an article in Time or Newsweek when you suddenly realize that you have been duped into reading an advertisement. It was outrageous and consumer advocates were able to force laws that stopped the practice and required that ads be clearly labeled and separated from information.
So, Inktomi wants to, once again, become a search engine because their customers (MSN and Yahoo) need search results (information) to put under their advertisements. The position of MSN, right now, is particularly enlightening: They have MSN ads, Overture ads, Looksmart ads and Inktomi ads. As people figure out that that is all they have, they loose market share (to Google mostly). MSN and Yahoo need to offer ads, but they need to offer information too or they will loose their audience. Inktomi’s only chance for survival is to fill that need. So they return to being a search engine.
Inktomi can only be a source of one (not both advertisements and information), and they have changed their minds and discovered that they must provide information. A good move for them, I think, if it isn’t too late.
To the extent they attempted to be both in the past, they have sown confusion, caused animosity and exposed themselves, once again, as the unscrupulous money-seeking corporation they are.
Why did they feel compelled to stop spidering? Because, sites could be spidered and included for free, why would they participate in PFI?
Why did they feel compelled to unscrupulously drop all other pages from their index for sites that submitted a page to the PFI program? To force those sites to pay for their advertising.
If Inktomi were clearly, consistently and unambiguously an advertising medium, nobody would resent their refusal to advertise for free.
From the other side, consider the clear advertiser, like GoInkGo. Of course he now resents his loss of market share and that all those free listings beat out his paid listing. He paid to his advertisements – why should all those "freeloaders" be able to rank above him?
Hey, GoInkGo, maybe you should give it up. Change your name to GoLSGo, or GoOvertureGo (Once it could have been GoGoGo :) ) or something. Both are firmly committed to advertisements and are unlikely to change their minds on you.
Also, consider the PFI listing that suddenly stopped showing (as often happened) for some reason. The lister paid Inktomi for the advertisement and they suppressed it without notification. Not fair! You paid for an ad and they didn’t show it.
I think the term PFI, in the current context of what Inktomi is trying to do, is misleading and will continue to cause confusion and resentment.
In some cases, it makes sense to pay Inktomi for their program. But, you are not paying for inclusion. It is easy enough to be included without paying because Inktomi has returned to full spidering.
What are you paying for? You are paying for frequent spiderings of your listings. Inktomi now offers a Pay for Fresh service. If you have frequently changing content, it is very valuable to be able to get your listings updated every 48 hours. Also, if you are in SEO, it can be valuable to get frequent updates in order to test out your SEO techniques.
This is a PFF (Pay for Fresh) service, not PFI. A valuable service! InktomiGuy, just a few posts up, said that this is their value proposition and I agree. But stop calling it PFI. That causes confusion and misunderstanding. The only people who will pay for PFI in a database supported by an aggressively crawling spider are newbies who have not figured out how to get crawled for free. Anybody who pays for inclusion will resent others being listed for free, especially when those listing rank above them.
But let us admit that Google does not charge for the PR. If you disagree, I am curious to know how PR could be bought from the source Google, Inc.
A direct cash exchange is but one form of currency transfer. What we're really interested in is transfer of, and recognition of, social power. Cash is one representation of social power. PageRank is another. On the Web, PageRank is pure power, thanks to Google's near-monopoly.
It's often said that one needs to have money in order to make money. So it is with PageRank. The more PageRank you have, the richer you are. The richer you are, the better equipped you are to become even richer. As Google becomes more of a monopoly on the Web, PageRank is the same as money.
On another forum, there's a lively discussion concerning the viability of putting a text-box ad on your site and charging for the link according to the PageRank that you enjoy. Just because Google doesn't charge, doesn't mean that PageRank is not a form of currency. Google is like the Federal Reserve System of the Web. They control the PageRank supply. If they don't like you, they can take you out of the game. SEOs often talk about how they'd be willing to pay to get back in.
You have to see money as a symbol, or expression of, social power, and then you will understand PageRank. Google doesn't charge directly, but many of us pay a price for Google's concentration of power, and the quirks of their algos.
