Why not Linux?

What would convince you to try Desktop Linux

[mack]

I have been a Linux user for in excess of a decade. I can honestly say the last time I even used a Windows machine was around about 5 years ago. I use Linux for all my work and day to day computing tasks.

What factors are at play that prevents more people from experimenting with Linux? Does it sound too techy and complicated? is there perhaps a large learning curve? Or does it come down to software requirements and perhaps old habits?

What would make you personally want to try a Linux distribution and have you perhaps tried before? Did you go back to another operating system and if so what drove that descicion?

Mack.

[explorador]

Can you not buy something like a Pinebook?

Not currently around here. Shipping? it's a bag of surprises and a long story ahead, I rarely buy this kind of stuff online, it's a personal thing. I was about to buy the Efika but it vanished from Amazon (again, it's a long story).

Desktops? Mmmm

the number of embedded desktops is still pretty large

I found myself using and enjoying ARM stuff running WinCE, Android, Linux and even the iPad. The most productive stage created content for some of my sites was achieved while using a WinCE machine. It was great for writing, I could browse the web, check facts, it was small, light and great battery life, foldable, amazing.

I do appreciate the benefits of devices that allow me to work while not running Windows. Android? still doesn't fully convince me for text work (editing and lots of writing). iPad? great one, but not my thing to experience constant updates and pushing the device to the point of becoming unusable, yes, specially the degradation of the speed/battery life because Apple made it that way.

BTW someone gave me some old Gateway Laptop, I was absolutely happy with it (still repairing) and put Linux there, worked like a charm (Xubuntu 12, had issues using recent versions). I want this machine for my high speed scanning, but sadly while there is a driver for Linux, it didn't work (high speed special scanner) so I had to leave Linux... I was pretty excited on keep it there, eh? yes, tried but... it didn't work and there is so much time I would dedicate on exploring the options. Back to Windows 7 :/ and not too happy about it.

Might not be obvious to many, but there are lots of circumstances where people don't need Windows, they just need something that can be turned on and allows them to write, edit, read, etc. Tablets and phones aren't exactly addressing effectively that market.

[wheel]

I've been using Linux on our business computers for probably about 15 years. Most of the criticisms of Linux were true, but outdated.
There's really no learning curve. Functionality is pretty obvious. (it used to be tough to get into it, now it's install and done). I'd argue windows has a tougher learning curve, and is harder to maintain - I've been out of windows for so long that when someone calls me with a problem I have no clue how to fix it - and no clue where to start to fix it. So it's not that linux is hard to learn, it's only differnt.
There used to be hardware and software problems all the time. Again, it's pretty much install and everything runs. Been a long time since I've seen a standard piece of hardware not work out of the box. Some stuff doesn't, but it's rare and generally easily fixable. Almost everyone will have 0 problems. Again, in years past this was a nightmare.
Updates and adding new software is way easier than windows IMO. I just pull up the software repositories, search for what I want, and click install. Pretty much like google play.
The only problem is windows-specific software, which of course, needs windows to run. That's specialised stuff - almost everyone these days runs exclusively on the web or desktop. Surfing, cloud based stuff, none of this is tied to the OS. Most of our office stuff has 0 requirements to run a windows-only app, so most of computers have 0 problem being entirely linux. I have a few industry specific-apps that are windows based so I keep windows running in a virtual box. I open it when I need to run the program, then shut it down when done. Saves me way more headaches than running windows exclusively.

[graeme_p]

I'd argue windows has a tougher learning curve

I think Windows (and MS Office) actually gains from being difficult to learn.

People assume that moving to another OS would be as hard as learning Windows was in the first place. The same applies to the tendency to favour using a few complex applications (like office suites - in general, not only MS Office) rather than more simpler applications.

is harder to maintain

I would go further. Windows is not suited for most people outside an office environment where you have an IT department to maintain it and enforce security.

[engine]

Many people learn windows and ms office as part of training at work. Once learnt they stick with it.

[tangor]

Many people learn windows and ms office as part of training at work. Once learnt they stick with it.

TRUE ... however, my recent experience has been that even those folks aren't MARRIED to Win or Win Products when it comes to picketbook, borked machines, or having to "start over" ...

I just remind them that you can only write, surf, doodle, listen, watch and the tools to do that might wear different jackets but they all do the same thing.

When you hit a CERTAIN high level of technical reliance for CERTAIN things does it make a difference ... and, chuckles, even this Win Guy is discovering that 'nix and applications have managed to close the gap.

Will freely admit I haven't changed/moved completely, but from a more practical side: I got it, it works, and in the meantime I am learning/finding more to love about Linux and associated apps. Not today, for me, but perhaps soon.

[graeme_p]

Once learnt they stick with it.

That reminds me of a conversation I had some years ago, that went something like this:

"I need a new computer at home, what should I buy?"

"Get an Apple Mac, they are easier to use and less problematic"

"Are they exactly the same as this?" - pointing at a windows machine.

"No"

"Then I do not want one".

People also tend to regard things from big brands as intrinsically trustworthy. In the comments on an article in The Register today (the one on inflammable smart plugs) someone quotes a friend as says ""No, it's from Amazon, that makes it secure". That is a common attitude.

[engine]

I have tried on many, many occasions to show alternatives, but, really, when we are talking about non-technical people they want to stick with familiarity. I don't blame them.
There are Apple fans and there are there are Microsoft users.
When you move to mobile/tablets the water is flowing differently, it's Apple and Android.

Interestingly I know one phone/tablet user that is Apple and desktop is Microsoft, and won't change.

[tangor]

In my office there are two machines sitting on the same desk. One is Windows. The other is Linix. When clients visit for whatever reason, a few ask that "that one looks different".

If they ask the question "What's the difference?"

"About $900." When they arch an eyebrow ... I point to the Linux and say: "The operating system and applications on that one are free."

That generally starts a short discussion and, for some, there's enough interest to take things a bit further ... and I eventually get to set up a box, apps, and give 'em a half-hour prelim course---then they are off and running.

Sad thing is the big box stores, who sell both OS machines, often price the Linux so close to the Win and Mac they run off potential customers.

[tangor]

I do, of course, get paid for the time ... and any subsequent "support calls" if they become annoying. :)

[explorador]

If they ask the question "What's the difference?"

"About $900." When they arch an eyebrow ... I point to the Linux and say: "The operating system and applications on that one are free."

That went well, some people said "the difference is they couldn't pay for a decent logo". The differences in profession, knowledge and also the lack of knowledge matter. On X place the owner (who happens to like Linux) said he didn't want us to use it to avoid visitors/clients to think we couldn't pay for software or licenses, actually is what several clients had in mind.

We... had... so... many discussions about it, most in friendly terms and making fun of the situations, but at the end of the day is difficult to sell the idea of "oh look how cool it is" when it's not even cheap, but free. In many cases (and I mean, to a lot of people) "free" is not a valid argument.

[graeme_p]

"free" is not a valid argument.

I agree. Free will appeal to some people, others will think free means it cannot be any good.

I personally think the important thing is "free as in freedom, not free as in beer". For a business avoiding vendor lock-in, license management hassle, better security, and so on.

[tangor]

Which opens the discussion for "why is it free?" Which leads to ...

I don't mislead people. But that is biggest difference and, as I noted above, I set Linux up for small business that need good tools without having excessive expense in setting up and moving forward.

Your Win10 install is only as good as the next service update!

[wheel]

>>and any subsequent "support calls" if they become annoying

In my house, that gets you put on linux. I put my mother on linux and haven't had a support call in years. She knows how to browse and get her email which is pretty much 100% of what she (and most other home users) does, and there's no ongoing things that get screwed up over time. Run windows long enough and it seems to develop issues somehow.

[mcneely]

Run windows long enough and it seems to develop issues somehow.

Microsoft needs an excuse to stay in the money game. These "issues" that develop are built in by design. Microsoft is a "for profit" company, and as such, "issues" that develop are meant to help maintain the bottom line.

[lammert]

To the defense of Windows, it can run for many years with the proper setup. I have installed Windows on many desktops and laptops of family members where they haven't complained for years. The reason is that I have set up them as normal users without any elevated access rights, where the administrator account is reserved for me only.

This is basically the same setup as used in default Linux installations. The user performs their actions on a user level which allows 95% of all the things they need to do, but protects them from unknowingly ruining the underlying stability by 95%. That one or two times a year when a printer driver must be installed, I am happy to log in through a remote connection and help them out.

All Operating Systems are stable and safe by design. Their problem is not the system internals or architecture, the problem is the user.

[tangor]

"The only loose screw is the one behind the keyboard..."

Heard that somewhere. Still rings true. :)

[graeme_p]

I have installed Windows on many desktops and laptops of family members where they haven't complained for years. The reason is that I have set up them as normal users without any elevated access rights, where the administrator account is reserved for me only.

Does that mean they cannot install software?

All Operating Systems are stable and safe by design

I am not convinced they are all equally so. I agree they are all acceptably so properly configured and administered.

Linux has advantages over Windows. I suspect BSDs are better than Linux.

[lammert]

That's correct, they cannot install software.

[explorador]

Coming back to the old thread. Here, while talking about tools to write software I was told "why choosing [xxxx] software instead of [python and all the alike]", well, Xojo (formerly Real Basic, what I used to write cross platform software) now released a new version able to compile for Apple Silicon (besides RaspBerry, iOS, Android, etc). Apple Silicon is the new things.

That sort of thing is what makes sense when you choose a platform in the long run to avoid battling with software that goes dead, or makes it almost impossible to build for new platforms. Yes there are tools, but look at how many are stuck in there with those tools, specially not being real cross platforms. Over the years I learned to watch the Youtube videos the opposite way (the latest and starting at the end), only to find developers frustrated with tools. This is the mistake/flaw/issue that is hurting Linux and also hurt Windows RT, oh yes you got that right, RT had some great features but software never appeared. Yes, you can do amazing things via remote desktop too or command line but that's not the case, isn't it? The apps never arrived, that's the thing.

Recently wanted to go back to Linux because I needed something specific and my Win8.1 was running short (compatibility, while I had even greater compatibility there than Linux), well, Linux fall short again and I did the unthinkable (to me) and moved to Windows 10. Again, some might say I dislike Linux, that's far from true, I love it! it's just a tool, just a tool that falls short for what I'm doing right now and that's sad.

Talking about Apps and being found on markets, well years ago I noticed on some country an amazing diversity of Android computers at great prices. I almost got one, those were big screens (with touch), memory, space, and you could use the screen as a monitor instead (plugged to a Win or Mac machine), I didn't got it because every time I traveled to that country I thought "oh, the size... bringing that with me", I regret it yes. Over the next months I noticed those were being removed from sale with really low prices, sadly nobody was buying them (only few came to my country only to face the same bad luck), this despite Android having a great diversity of apps including Office Tools, but anyway it's not windows, it's not X, it's not Z.

Sometimes, to me, it's quite clear why many people won't move to Linux, other times I just don't know, the answers are not clear and people won't exactly tell you way, instead its something like "well, mmmhh... meh..." it's interesting, again from the product design angle.

[graeme_p]

@explorador the best protection against platforms dying is to use a reasonably widely used open source platform. Someone keep it alive for a long time.

So the advantage of Xojo is that it is out for a new platform a little ahead of Python and some other things? A Python RC is available, Lazarus works. Most of what I use will work (not necessarily fast) on ARM already so if it is available for OS X there is real barrier to it running natively on Apple ARM hardware.

Android is not designed for big screens. It does not have the apps that run on Windows and would be worse desktop experience than desktop Linux.

[tangor]

Win Guy Servicing Linux Update...

I should thank the current medical crisis world wide for the new work. To date I have modified 173 machines @ $75 a pop to Linux---giving new breath to old hardware and infusing current net requirements and updated "office" capabilities. That's significantly better income than adsense on an average month. Not bad for 346 hours of work.

Linux Rocks! Also: Happy Clients!

Me? Still caught in the gray area where I will NOT play SaaS for MS products and will NOT play cloudy stuff storage for my WORK as a byproduct of SaaS... that and the fact that most of this is AFTER RETIREMENT and is just fun stuff and keep me sharp and occupied.

At this point I truly say: "Why Not Linux!"

[graeme_p]

@tangor, that is impressive.

You are protecting the environment, your customers will also have more stable and secure machines (I know Windows is fine for knowledgeable users or in an office with IT support, but for naive users Linux is easier to keep updated and secure), and you are making a reasonable amount of money from it.

[JorgeV]

Indeed, Linux is using way less resources than Windows, and it really gives a second life to older hardware. Also, another advantage, is that, Linux has so many open source drivers, that you can expect to use older devices too. In my case, I own a Canon scanner, and when I switched to Windows 10, it was no longer recognized , and Canon never released updates for their drivers for this model. On Linux, this scanner is perfectly recognized.

[tangor]

Heh, protecting environment never crossed mind ... making old stuff work new-ish since even cheap hardware seems to "live forever" makes more sense.

Ala scanner above I've managed to keep one camera and two printers alive via my Linux "dev" machine. One recent client nearly bowed down and kissed feet when I found a way to get their industrial grade 24 pin dot matix line printer back in service as a network node. Even provided them with a few sound techniques to keep the noise down. :)

[explorador]

Linux? hey this is unrelated!, nope! I just got a Surface RT (finally), been wanting an ARM device for quite some time (not running Android) and those are quite difficult to find in my area (I'm not a fan of waiting for shipping or spending more than the fair value). There is hope I guess, some people found a way to boot the Surface, the kernel boots (but it's a long way ahead as the hardware it not absolutely accessible and no GUI yet), this could take years or perhaps left abandoned, who knows, I do feel enthusiast on running Linux on the Surface RT. I could buy a new laptop but that's not the case for me, and yes, Windows 10 ARM is around, already some devices available. I do want to have the RT device with Linux, perhaps some day. The battery life is great, the speed is acceptable, the internet experience limited but Linux could solve that, sadly I don't have the knowledge to get involved so I'm just an average user waiting for magic, Linux can bring life to old devices that are still useful.

Unexpected productivity? there is a lack of apps on diff systems, Linux has been discussed, yes. But not every single app on earth should exist for every OS, perhaps not a pretty topic or probably more tied to discipline, but to some people having just the basic stuff on their devices allows not just fast (enough) and great battery life, but also great productivity with less distractions, after all "useful" means what gets the job done in fair conditions, not precisely having a bloated device. Found some of related comments while navigating on forums lately, reminded me the times when I was using some old WinCE as a typewriter.


Tangor, great to read, unexpected turn during the pandemic.

**Just a comment in general (it's a conversation after all), as mentioned the "free" is great, the free as in freedom is also great, but not so great when there are little options to choose from and that freedom just doesn't exist on some cases. I mentioned on a not so recent post how repetitive it becomes when searching for options brings over and over "try phython, you can do that with phython", it's like hey I need to get to NY, "ok get a skateboard", ok now China "skateboards are great", it would be just like suggesting everyone on this forum to use Wordpress for everything because other options are not really available (Me, personally... even really liking Linux, I'm absolutely tired of hearing those suggestions and I'm not alone). Found several interesting articles and even YT videos talking about the "oh, another new distro! let me guess, no this no that, just security updates, improvements and a variety of screenshots with diff wallpapers. It's ok, suggestions are welcome but the song gets old and repetitive (for newbies and not newbies). I mean, the internet has already enough threads on this "but hey, I bet those forums are not phython based...". It also applies to Gimp on diff levels. [- And this is not a rant, seriously -].

[tangor]

Going through my rolodex (remember those?). Snagged two more to "upgrade" to Linux. One is dropping off their machine between 10 and 11 AM tomorrow, the other comes on Thursday.

As a Win guy I know a lot of Win clients ... Those who are 'nix now probably know a lot of other 'nix folks...and not that many Wins...

Meanwhile, Win10 has ticked off a still very large user base of Win7 still out there and this is an attractive escape route which keeps hardware alive and saves some dollars along the way. Sadly I am in the "D's" of the rolodex. By the time I get to Z this little adventure might come to a crashing halt!

Will cross that bridge when the time comes.

[Kendo]

As a developer I wouldn't waste my time considering Linux for desktop.