Why not Linux?

What would convince you to try Desktop Linux

[mack]

I have been a Linux user for in excess of a decade. I can honestly say the last time I even used a Windows machine was around about 5 years ago. I use Linux for all my work and day to day computing tasks.

What factors are at play that prevents more people from experimenting with Linux? Does it sound too techy and complicated? is there perhaps a large learning curve? Or does it come down to software requirements and perhaps old habits?

What would make you personally want to try a Linux distribution and have you perhaps tried before? Did you go back to another operating system and if so what drove that descicion?

Mack.

[explorador]

graeme: Sidenote:itt really irritates me that people junk old hardware because they think its normal for old machines to get slower - as if a CPU is like a car engine that losers power as it wears out over the years. It wastes money and it terrible for the environment.

Too long to post and too detailed to make it short . Yes, that's a terrible trend, lots of what people consider "old" computers are more than able to get the job done. The only thing that gets slower over time is hard disk due to aging-damage, and that's easy to fix, other than that... unreasonable software upgrades on the wrong hardware.

[brotherhood of LAN]

>old computer

Indeed. Think for the past at least half a decade the average laptop or desktop is more than fine for dealing with your typical browser or office apps. If anything, cleaning out the dust in the machine or some new CPU paste and it's restored to its original glory. Think anything 2Ghz upwards is well prepared for the web anyway.

[blend27]

---.... from else where article....

....In this article we learned how to download and extract the tarball containing the application files, how to install it, how to add it to our PATH, and how to create a desktop launcher for the application.

And that is for Firefox Dev Addition tutorial that ranks second on Goog.

So if as an experienced Dev I have to chase down 'args' being passed to sudo apt to get a flavor of the tool then it is STILL no go.

I do have Ubuntu Server locally, well maintained VB guest image, it has all the tools on it that I'd use on a windows box: webserver, eclipse, ftp client..etc.... but it is just for play...

[explorador]

I think people should use Linux because I like it and they should like it too. Not addressed to anyone in particular, just a general picture that often gets painted on many Linux forums, not to mention people hating Microsoft or the avalanche of comments regarding "you are doing it wrong" when something doesn't work. Well, it can be a reasonable argument to some extent but it doesn't REALLY consider other people needs and choices when they are already aware of their own needs and available choices.

@blend27: Firefox Dev Edition? that's not accurate, not true, in fact... well, when you actually... but... Windows sucks!. Ehhh that's true, many apps aren't that easy to install on Linux as it is on Windows unless they are part of the automated software centers. There are gazillion tutorials to achieve the "same" result on diff platforms, some are easier than others, and some tutorials are even prettier than others, even to the extent of 1, 2, 3.. done! that's still a weak point that needs improvement, yes, despite the over and over mentions of terminal.

Part of my background included product design and also graphic design and UX, it's been ultra valuable to get things done and understand why people choose one thing over another, even if one provides the same or better functionality, it's amazing. That's a common missing point on the never ending conversations among Linux developers, in fact (nothing negative here), it's very common to see people answering the questions, telling their "why" and find many enthusiast users are-not-actually-listening, not really. Hope things get better, I don't have the high-end-needed-experience, time or resources to be part of that change, specially as a contributor. Even if people pay me I wouldn't be able to build a X clone app for Linux, except for some already known range of specific stuff (I know because I already tried and coded there), I wouldn't be able to code the same high end clone apps on Windows anyway (consider a Word processing app, Photoshop clone, etc).

[explorador]

I don't now if another thread about Linux would be a good idea, I'm curious in all positiveness: WHY LINUX. In many cases people don't see the point because they already have the tools, the ecosystem and things solved, so why fix it if it's not broken? and the free concept doesn't really apply because Windows comes free to many users in many cases (aside piracy).

It would be interesting to hear stories on WHY Linux was attractive, interesting and even a better choice, not just the "why not", the conversations alone will be very different.

[blend27]

---that's still a weak point that needs improvement, yes, despite the over and over mentions of terminal. ---

My point is why learn how to marinade a piece of meat with some "super user technique" when one could simply throw bunch of hot dogs on a grill, add some ketchup, mustard and some cold brew on a side and be done with IT?

Ask Marsha from IT? That is a basic response from a none super user User.

I just killed a mosquito that landed on my elbow!

[explorador]

Many things on Linux need simple product design principles to be applied, practical stuff, and both worlds could perhaps be possible (terminal and non terminal). It's inevitable: Linux in one way or the other WILL FACE the same praise, dislike and criticism other OS's have faced over the years, you can't beat Windows just like that without getting demands of the users, not just the likes. And it's not just about beating, products anyway will be exposed to likes and dislikes.

Edited. Shorter is better.

[tangor]

Update re: happy new Linux user...

Brought his mom's machine over to "upgrade" to Linux ... Pen I, 8mb Ram, 500mb HHD, SVGA ...

Told him to take it back to his mom and let me think about it ...

I am NOT and never have claimed any real experience with Linux, other than my own ... but I suspect the hardware described MIGHT do Linux, but might NOT do it justice. Good fit, or pushing boundaries?

I did suggest the hardware was really long in the tooth and the graphics were on the edge of "not enough" in today's real world.

[dstiles]

I have a few older machines. The Compaq below I bought second-hand with XP installedon it about ten years ago, maybe longer. It's always run linux Mint (possibly ubuntu early on) since I first bought it. It worked mainly as a video viewer (VLC) and lately Zoom.

Compaq Laptop Presario CQ 60
2 x Intel T1600 @ 1.66GHz 64bit
3.011 GB memory
250 GHB hard disk
Mint 19.2 Tina XFCE

I have an old ex-Windows 7 Dell laptop now running Lubuntu - don't really use it past original installation.

Dell Laptop Model PP21L
1 x Intel Celeron 1.50 GHz
2.05 GB memory
40 GB hard disk
Lubuntu Bionic Beaver

And a (probably) ten-year-old custom-built desktop.

6 x AMD FX 6200
7.9 Gb memory
500 GB hard disk
Manjaro XFCE plus VPS Windows 2000 Server

A second-hand Compaq desktop, originally running Mint Rosa, now languishing as a spare with Lubuntu.

Compaq
1 x Pentium D 2 core 3.00GHx
2GB memory
150GB hard disk
32bit
Lubuntu (Ubuntu 18.04 LTS)

A month ago I replaced a Dell desktop with an Acer which seems to work well as another video machine.

Acer U4
1 x Intel i3: 2 cores 4 threads 530 @ 2.93 GHz 64 bit
8 GB memory
250 GB SSD
Mint 19.2 Tina XFCE

NOTE: All machines now running either Mint 19.2 or Lubuntu 18.04. Most are 64-bit but at least one is 32-bit - maybe laptops are as well. Latest OS for Mint/Ubuntu/Manjaro may not run 32bit; that is considered pretty obsolete now. I think Lubuntu may still work on 32 bit, also several other lightweight OSs.

[blend27]

-- Brought his mom's machine over to "upgrade" to Linux ... --

Wait for the first support phone call now... Ahhh, I will be right over type of thingy....

[tangor]

@dstiles ... note that all your old machines are 1gb ram or larger ...

"mom's machine" is 8 MEGABYTES ram ... Hence my wait and check it out.

Side Note: the system does NOT have even one USB port which is another concern for adding camera, which is what fellow and mom really want to achieve (video calls).

[dstiles]

Sorry, tangor - I often get confused that way. :(

A thought: if obtaining a new/secondhand box check if the monitor works with the box AND OS. I have a monitor here that failed on NEW hardware, though less than ten years old at the time.

[graeme_p]

@tangor, I think a machine that low spec makes for an interesting experiment in what you could get it to do, but its not going to be useful - not going to do video calls for a start. I am very enthusiastic about keeping old hardware going, and I even I would not try to turn that into a suable desktop.

A Raspberry PI Micro which should cost you about $5 in the US has half a gig of RAM a faster processor and better graphics - even that is pushing low spec.

If he likes to recycle a reasonable second hand machine or buy something like a Pi 4 he can give his mother a cheap machine that would work

[mack]

Wait for the first support phone call now... Ahhh, I will be right over type of thingy....

What I do in that situation is enable SSH on the system and setup port forwarding on the router. Then when you get that "support" call, you can simply ask them to power it up and SSH in. You can also enable X server when SSH-ing in and get the file browser to launch remotely (without the need for NFS). Most issues can be solved remotely via the terminal.

Mack.

[mcneely]

When Linux can do the same more folks might actually migrate.

Speaking to the OEM, it's already being done.
HP is turning out OEM's with Linux right out of the box.

... with support options from HP and Canonical, you’ll have access to enterprise-class support for your entire client deployment.

[www8.hp.com...]

Support has always been a major pain for most. When people think of Linux, they just somehow imagine trying to find a solution by combing message boards for hours and hours looking at techy/geeky commands via the terminal. The average user either doesn't have the time, or won't take the time to do that. The average user wants to get on the phone and have someone else put the fix to it for them.

The next thing that might be a problem is cost. HP is usually much more expensive, so the average user may choose to spend only a couple of 3 hundred dollars on a cheapy Dell, than spend 6 hundred or so more on an HP.

[graeme_p]

If you want support, you have to pay for it.

It depends what you mean by an average user. Consumers and small business do not seem to have access to support that is actually much good on any platform. For them, Linux has one advantage, most of the problems are around installation (because it does not come pre-installed) but once installed its relatively trouble free (unless you mess around with it, so my install tends to have issues, while my wife's does not).

For bigger business they need to either hire people in house to fix stuff or buy a support contract. Silly not to, regardless of OS.

[tangor]

Update on new user's mom's machine ...

Determined there wasn't enough memory to make the attempt. Tried to find some old ram to upgrade to at least a gigabyte, but the total cost of just the chips on the used market was that close to min-spec NEW laptop from a local vendor who sells same with 'nix install as a choice. I suggested son go that route and select Mint (to match his machine) so that as he learns Mint he can help mom if needed.

4gb ram, 500gb SSD, 3 USB, HDMI out, Camera, sound out, NO LABEL, but looked very like Acer stuff. Mint installed, one and done (with tax) for $275US

Son went that route, thanked me, and spent a pleasant evening at mom's place showing her the magic and wonder of something that didn't look exactly like Windows, but did the same thing. Her only complaint was the screen was too small. (15" instead of her 20"). When asked I told son to hook the old monitor into the video out and mom was a happy camper.

I love happy endings. :)

More, I was reminded that even low end stuff actually works quite well, if it is in the ballpark of current specs/software/driver requirements!

[brotherhood of LAN]

4gb ram, 500gb SSD, 3 USB, HDMI out, Camera, sound out, NO LABEL, but looked very like Acer stuff. Mint installed, one and done (with tax) for $275US

Decent enough spec and reasonable price. Always pleasing when I use an online custom pc configurator and deselect Windows to knock about $120 off the price. Expect a call when they get a printer for it...

[tangor]

Oddly enough, mom's Epson fired right up!

But I have experienced MANY oddities of finding drivers for printers under Linux, though most of those were years ago, or (recently) not "mainstream" printers. Then again, that happens with Windows installs as well!

[Mark_A]

Never felt the need.

[graeme_p]

Printing has improved massively over the last 10 or 20 years.

The success of MacOS has probably helped with drivers (it uses, CUPS, the same print system as Linux), manufacturers are more willing to support Linux (e.g. HP's proprietary printer management GUI runs on Linux now), and most distributions come with better setup tools (so you do not need to mess with config files - and CUPS config files are notoriously hard to understand).

[tangor]

Update on family embarked in a new direction.

Sis decided she'd had enough with Win10 messing up that her brother sent her to me. I do the hard work of locating and archiving her data, email setting/address book, etc. Wipe Win10, format the drive to "nul" and then install Mint (including OpenOffice, too) and transfer the data back to the "new machine".

Wonder how many Win users out there are beginning to catch on to what SaaS actually means? What I do know is those who make the transition will avoid the potential for monthly billing or "annual renewals" from M$ in the future.

What I do know, even at the "friends and family" rates I've been charging, there turned out to be a nice bit of "ka-ching". Tempted to drag out one of my "retired/spare" boxes and set up Mint and really explore it. And in the process might actually give 'nix a real shot at convincing me to change work methods.

[mcneely]

...set up Mint and really explore it.

Not much to explore really ... Everything is pretty much right out there in the great wide open

Warning: You might be just a bit gobsmacked to learn that there really isn't much to the Linux Mint box.
Over all it's a good system, built by mates that don't have a whole lot of time for any unnecessary bugaboo. Linux Devs don't have to invent more work for themselves just so they can justify staying on the clock longer.

Linux Mint is fast and light, whereas on the other hand, Windows 10 is just light ... in the loafers.

As a matter of speaking, I've been on the Linux now for so long, that going into a Windows 10 box amounts to an exercise is futility and frustration.

[tangor]

My "explore" is to find out what Mint can and can't do IN RELATION to Windows, and to maintain K.I.S.S. for average folks who have no desire to be "computer literate" or run a web, dev, or other process and were raised on Win stuff in school (if they ever encountered it).

In short: The lay person.

As noted above my "other box" is ubuntu. Call this "exploration" playing in the weeds.

[explorador]

Revisiting the "why not Linux", well there is a lot to say (but I won't this time), like in friendly conversations were we all agree we like the same stuff, but in Linux it's been proven people get hurt and don't take it lightly, so as said, I won't post some of that this time.

But... I can say, I have tried what none of you mentioned in the thread: Linux on ARM, Linux on other than X86 as Windows replacement. I have installed and used Linux on routers, tablets, tv boxes, Palm devices (old PDA's) and even on Android laptops. Sure, lots of other things have Linux heart and there is no screen, but that's a different topic.

I really wanted a Surface RT (yes, by Microsoft) running Linux. The device despite many criticizing it... is great, the battery life is amazing, but condemned to stay forever with the same browser and no other software than what's in the box. The battery life is AMAZING. I'm not interested on great battery life at the cost of HUGE batteries, that's nonsense to me, I mean, ARM has great benefits. I don't own any ARM laptop just because you can't find any locally, nobody sells them.

I've seen some appear and disappear on Amazon, but the extra price, taxes and waiting kill the thrill (I don't live in the US or Canada). Yes yes, the raspberry Etc, but that's not my thing.

[graeme_p]

but in Linux it's been proven people get hurt and don't take it lightly

I think you are misinterpreting people's responses.

Linux on ARM, Linux on other than X86 as Windows replacement

The question "why not Linux?" does not really apply there, because people do often use Linux, and they often default to Linux.

I was thinking of starting another thread on OSes for old and low end devices. Linux is commonest, but there are other *nix OSes, and even some completely different ones.

I am trying a Raspberry P0 4I out at the moment and I am pretty impressed.

[explorador]

I think you are misinterpreting people's responses.

Nope, someone else pointed out the same in this thread. Linux is an OS, valid points to use it, valid points to not use it, and valid points to mention the negatives or lacking features, specially when people need it and want to use Linux. After all Linux just like the other Os's, it's an operative system, not a religion. That's as far as this thread is concerned, now concerning to other threads on other forums... it applies even to greater length and it's been mentioned in the open, it's been labeled by many as the toxicity in the community, something that doesn't help the movement.

The question "why not Linux?" does not really apply there,

Yes, it applies. Linux is a great OS and solves many issues on diff situations, many people use it (I did and I do), it's the door to the new era of personal computing and it's been mentioned openly even by Linus Torvalds, "we need arm pcs", the topic is why not Linux, not "why don't you replace Windows with Linux".

The answer there is quite important and quite fundamental: Linux IS an operative system and can be used on laptops, Pcs, servers, etc, it can also be used on other platforms that also have a -personal computing- form, people can use it for text editing, professional editing, video, documents, etc, gazillion of options. The problem is there: when people only approach Linux as a possible Windows replacement, that's a total different world and total different consideration in the use of products and OS's, that's pretty pretty basic product design approach and reality.

But again, in case it's needed: this is friendly, we are just discussing something in common. Nothing negative here.

By now I don't move to Raspberry options because I really want and need mobile, just like many users: ARM laptop. Sadly not available in my region.

[graeme_p]

I disagree with you and anyone else who interprets comments that way. I have not seen anyone get "hurt".

Can you not buy something like a Pinebook? They seem to ship globally although dealing with customs or making returns might be a problem.

I have also been looking at a mobile Pi 4. There are a few pi laptop kits around. I want something small and the problem I have at the moment is finding a case that will hold the PI and screen and powers supply - there are options for PI plus either, but not PI plus both.

the topic is why not Linux

You missed the subtitle. Including it, it says "Why not Linux? What would convince you to try Desktop Linux"

Mostly, desktop means x86 - ARM laptops are a rare exception.

[tangor]

While everyone (it seems, except me) has a net capable phone, the number of embedded desktops is still pretty large. Given economics, globally, some of those systems are long in the tooth but still functioning, yet falling behind software and security wise.

I've identified a large number of those machines in my "age group" and inadvertently picked up a side job of "save my stuff and make my hardware work better" potential clientele. Might eventually make the "why not Linux" question moot in the long run. :)

[graeme_p]

While everyone (it seems, except me) has a net capable phone

Not me either. I am getting pushed towards it because everyone and everything assumes you can rub their apps.