hidden text

[mushy]

I heard that gidden text is not allowed on google. If somebody puts a hidden text in a page for the reason that there is no place to put text since one has used images on most of the page. Also "alt" tag can't define all the contents of the site. In such cases what should one person do? Can't even a small piece of hidden text is allowed?

Or if a person puts test with size zero or text colour of back ground. Then is it prohibbited also. i mean if some body describing contents on his site and there is no other way then what should one do?

[dirkz]

Mushy, welcome to WebmasterWorld!

I can't see a reason for putting invisible text on a page besides tricking SEs. If there is one, please mention it.

If you have no text on a page, you can always use keyword-rich anchor text to compensate.

[Nick_W]

If the page is *very* graphics heavy, why not just provide a "text only version". It's very simple to do and would solve a variety of issues...

Welcome to WebmasterWorld ;)

Nick

[seofreak]

to be honest google doesn't isn't perfect in this ..

1) I have noticed sites that are in dmoz / google survive hidden / cloacked text.

2) A high PR site does not have hidden but cloacked not understandable sentences. The higher PR saves it.

[edited by: Marcia at 11:50 am (utc) on Oct. 21, 2003]
[edit reason] No details, please. [/edit]

[Sharper]

I can't see a reason for putting invisible text on a page besides tricking SEs. If there is one, please mention it.

Usability and a good customer experience is a reason. I have a site that contains "fast-loading" static product content, while the price and availability content is "slow" to load for the whole page, since it's pulled from an external database.

Not wanting to leave gaps in the page while the slow content loads, the solution was to use CSS to set the price and availability section as "display:none", with a link to "Display Price and Availability" that when clicked sets the link "display:none" and flips the CSS so that the actual information displays in it's place.

So the slower content loads in the background after the page has rendered and is available immediately when a user wants it.

There aren't any "keywords" in the hidden text, so I'm sure a manual review of the page would make a human have no problems with it.

I do however live in minor fear that Google will start spidering external CSS and penalizing pages with ANYTHING hidden, even if it's totally innocent. At that point, I suppose I'd have to fill the pages with cluttered client-side javascript to get the same effect. I really don't want to have to go that route.

I'm sure there are at least another dozen legitimate reasons for a site to use "hidden" text, especially when it comes to DHTML (I've seen plenty of sites displaying different swatches/images/product descriptions that get preloaded via DHTML as "hidden" text to a spider, etc...), but there's one concrete real-life example.

[mushy]

Well anchoring topic is not picked up always. Many of my anchored text are picked up but many didn't. So what should One do? i run site in a frame. So images on main index means alot. I can't make them text since looks would become wierd and people would run away. I have free entertainment site. so look counts alot. I wish I could give you url of my site here so that you could see what I am talking about. There is sooo much in my pages running in a frame that if I put alt tag with the images and describe it fully then every my page would cover half when people take mouse of the image. What good reason is more than it? Help. Can something be done about it? i am not putting anything which is not on mysite. I am not going against the rulz.

What should I do. Please help.....

[Nick_W]

>> I am not going against the rulz.

By whose definitin, yours or Googles?

You clearly know it's not what they want, so my advice would be that if it worries you, don't do it.

If it doesn't worry you, go right ahead. You know what the possible consequences could be don't you?

>>frames

<noframes>

Nick

[chadmg]

This concerns me as well. I have current location text that is hidden for display, but is visible for print, all done through css. Does google penalize for this?

[dirkz]

First, I wouldn't use frames. Maybe there is a solution for this.

Second, if the ALT text is what the picture shows, then your site would even survive human inspection.

Third, why not add text-links under the picture? With CSS and DIVs you can even let the text appear "in" the image (well, above it)?

If your page doesn't get spidered completely (which, btw, wouldn't achieve anything if you have no text in it) there is only one thing: Links. Inbound Links. With good anchor text.

[kaled]

Frames and Google do mix. I use frames without significant problems. HOWEVER, I use javascript to make it all work properly. Each page calls a javascript file. The code in that file detects if it is in a frameset and if not loads itself into the correct frameset. Google sees an ordinary structure. You have to ensure that links open in the same frame rather than in _top but Google doesn't care about this.

Perhaps I should publish the javascript for this, but, honestly, this was the first js code I ever wrote so it can't be that difficult. Certainly, it's not rocket science. The only problem is that my pages don't work from the Google cache but I plan to fix this.

Kaled.

[mushy]

Ok I have few question regarding anchoring text as alt. Please answer those. I hope my problem may get solved by that.....

- If I give alt to images which are not hyperlinked, i.e. only images of my page then will google pick it up?

- If I use and which is hyperlinked (and I give them alt tag) but no body bothers to click it then would google pick it up?

- If images of page which are hyperlinked but target is the frame present on my page (For example name of iframe is HOME) and I give those images alt tag then would google pick it up?

- Images which have rollover effect by javascript and are hyperlinked, if I give them alt tag then would google pick it up.....

- Hidden frames... Are they allowed to put text in. If only case yes then please let me know the code for it. I mean how to make them.

Please answer my questions if you know the answer. please....

[dirkz]

Mushy, no one can answer your questions 100%, I can't, too. The alt attribute is there to tell the picture's content for people with text-browsers (or even "reading" browsers).

For the sake of Google, I would give every picture a reasonable description in the alt tag.

Also, if you use images as links, it's plain that you can't use anchor text (which by the way is a waste in terms of Google, because it's very important). You can try to compensate this by using the alt attribute of the a-tag (yes, it has also one) to place the anchor text there.

I never had sites with pictures only, but I have successfully ranked pages with lots of descriptive alt text in images.

JavaScript is ok as long as it is non-intrusive, that is doesn't destroy the HTML structure. If google with its HTML parser can read the attributes from an a-tag it should be allright, e.g.
<a href="javascript:..." onmouseover="test()" alt="some description"><img .../></a>

Google will just ignore attributes like onmouseover and stuff. Just don't use JavaScript to put out document-content (document.write) and expect to be picked up by Google.

[tribal]

>> If I give alt to images which are not hyperlinked, i.e. only images of my page then will google pick it up?

Yes, for sure. Especially when there is no other content, title and alt-tags are really important.

>> If I use and which is hyperlinked (and I give them alt tag) but no body bothers to click it then would google pick it up?

Google doesn't measure users clicking, just what it sees on a page.

>> If images of page which are hyperlinked but target is the frame present on my page (For example name of iframe is HOME) and I give those images alt tag then would google pick it up?

I'm not sure I understand your question, you mean would Google spider pages through links, even though they open in an iframe? Yes it will, as long as there is a "href" in the <a>-tag and the link isn't JS, it will pick up the link.

>> Images which have rollover effect by javascript and are hyperlinked, if I give them alt tag then would google pick it up.....

Probably, but if you use text in the link (besides the image), you will probably not find the page by typing in the alt text, cause G then will prioritize the text in the link itself over the alt text.

>> Hidden frames... Are they allowed to put text in. If only case yes then please let me know the code for it. I mean how to make them.

I believe G doesn't punish them, you can just make them by creating a frameset using this: rows="*,0"
But it would be better to make a text-only version, and you'd have no risk at all.

[risto]

Mushy,

the alt tags have lost a lot of their value in Google. I think that Google hasnīt give weight to the alt attributes since last springīs new algo. They have more value in INK and some other engines.

Google seems to handle the alt tags similar to the meta descs. I have had some tests where Google has still indexed them but with very low value. Anybody can test it with less common key words.

[dirkz]

I think that Google hasnīt give weight to the alt attributes since last springīs new algo.

You preconditions could vary, but I have definitely ranked pages full of pictures #1,#2 and #3 (varying) for the keywords in the img-alt attribute. They are at this position right now.

[dougmcc1]

alt attribute of the a-tag

The link tag doesn't have an ALT attribute. Perhaps you're thinking of the TITLE attribute?

[dirkz]

Perhaps you're thinking of the TITLE attribute?

Yes, sorry for the typo.

[kaled]

Google may not worry what tag it finds ALT text in. My guess it it views ALT text as hidden but legal. Certainly, there is scope for ALT text to be abused so I imagine Google has taken steps of one sort or another to prevent this.

Kaled.

[4eyes]

I can't see a reason for putting invisible text on a page besides tricking SEs. If there is one, please mention it.

Loads of reasons - thats why its so difficult to filter.

For example: Layers can be made to appear and disappear as part of the menu system or general functionality of the site.

[oodlum]

The only problem is that my pages don't work from the Google cache but I plan to fix this.

Hi Kaled.

Please let us know if you do. I have a site that also reloads orphan pages into the correct frameset, but I've been afraid that this could be misinterpreted as a redirect when the Google cache of the page is viewed.

And there are a lot of buggers out there viewing my cache.

I can see them all racing to lodge spam reports.

[mushy]

Ok one more question. How long a page title can be? Do anyone has good literature about it or any idea. I just like to know how maximum I can put....

[dirkz]

If we agreed here that a title can be safely 100K long, would you then stuff it with keywords?

[mushy]

To dirkz :I just found something and I needed a review. I am learning this stuff. After getting to conclusion I will put the title size that should be there. Well think if yahoo starts writing keywords for it's site then whole pages filled with word would be less. Same goes for my website. It's the best entertainment site around with tooooooooo many fun things. But It's very new and just launched it so I was wondering for it too get google so Seeking help from this forum.....