New Panda Update - September 27

[BrodyDodes]

Google rolled out its most recent iteration of the Panda algorithm on Wednesday 9/28/11 (or Tuesday according to who you ask). Saw the first recovery of one of my punished sites since the first iteration back in February. Anyone else see recoveries?


[webpronews.com...]

When asked if an iteration of Panda was implemented this week, a Google spokesperson told us, “yes.” She also provided the following statement:

“We’re continuing to iterate on our Panda algorithm as part of our commitment to returning high-quality sites to Google users. This most recent update is one of the roughly 500 changes we make to our ranking algorithms each year.”

If you’ve followed the Google Panda update saga throughout the year, you may recall Dani Horowitz’s story. She runs an IT discussion community called Daniweb, and it was hit hard by the Panda update, but she made a lot of changes, and gradually started to build back some Google cred

[Dave_Hybrid]

It gets worse, you know things are botched when a random myspace page pushes you out of 1st place for you exact match domain/brand name. I've been there 6 years and not one other site on the web uses the phrase in their domain. wow Google.

[edited by: Dave_Hybrid at 11:35 pm (utc) on Oct 4, 2011]

[Whitey]

This is bigger than us and not in our control.

.... aside from the collatoral damage , what have you done to your site to make improvements?

Collatoral damage or not, considerable improvements will strengthen your sites from Panda updates in the long run. I don't think Dani made any major changes or ongoing improvements after the 1st drop - not that she needed to ( to the best of my knowledge ). Maybe, if she had, she might have escaped, but who knows ... her site looks pretty good anyway.

I encourage you and others to find a way through by sharing your knowledge and communicating positively through these boards. A tough ask right now .. i know - but keep an eye on solutions. Best of luck.

[Dave_Hybrid]

Thanks whitey. The changes have all been positive, they site is better because of them and it shows by making leaps in the relevant metrics. Bounce, time on site etc. So in a sense its been productive

But it still hurts when Google continues to reduce your search traffic, when 1,000's of real members dont agree, and make it known by living on the site and using it 24/7.

Then to top it you hear that it may be a bug and if your special you'll get better treatment. WTF. As i posted above ive just found im not even no1 for my exact match brand/domain name, im floored. Imagine if daniweb didnt rank no1 for daniweb, its in that context.

Its impossible to operate under these conditions.

[Whitey]

Its impossible to operate under these conditions.

Anything's possible David ... just remind yourself how you got here in the 1st place when others didn't even begin, now you have to step forward. Just imagine if you didn't have good folks to share with on these boards.

Any ideas on what could be your next step to ramp up your reaction to the existing conditions? It would be great to hear back.

[Whitey]

1,000's of real members dont agree, and make it known by living on the site and using it 24/7.

Here's a free thought. Why don't you explain to members your dilema with Google and ask them for their support and suggest that with that support you can move forward. Ask them for what you need , referrals, usability and service feedback to improve whatever you can think of - even more business because times are tough.

And with that offer to give them more as part of the deal.

1000's of loyal members says to me you need to look at how you can be more independent from Google. What a base to work with.

And 1000's of loyal members are going to be a lot more reliable than Google's Panda algorithmn.

You don't deserve the difficulties that you are facing, and many of your members that benefit from your service would like to see you succeed and all the stress' removed.

Some of the folks here ( maybe me included ) have been staring at the screen for too long with a long face. Look at Panda as one of the greatest opportunities and by sharing facts and ideas the creative juices will start to flow, plus more folks will engage and assist.

I don't want to understate the challenges that folks face - not at all, but you increase your chances of success with a positive outlook on the opportunities. So it's not just a message for you Dave - we all have to flip this mindset around to get ahead. When people get together for good purpose great things can happen. - best of luck

[netmeg]

via Matt Cutts on Twitter:

Weather report: expect some Panda-related flux in the next few weeks, but will have less impact than previous updates (~2%).

[twitter.com...]

[Zivush]

Why don't you explain to members your dilemma with Google and ask them for their support and suggest that with that support you can move forward.

That is what I did 2 months ago in my facebook page. I have asked 15k loyal readers to click the fb like buttons, twitters etc under posts they liked. They did it and still doing it extensively.
I know I am getting 500% more clicks on social networks than never before, but still no movement.

[Dave_Hybrid]

Well, this sounds promising. Ish...

Is everyone's interpretation of "less impact than previous updates (~2%)"

Either a) 2% on top of the current.

Or b) 2% from the pre Panda bassline.

It really could mean they are lowering the threshold or raising it further.

[Andylew]

Great, panda flux, my favorite! The tweet should have just read: Prepare for another kick in the balls!

[viggen]

I wrote a while back in some other forum that the less i care about Google the more Google rewards me with free traffic.

I started to nocache than block images and now i blocked about 50% of my site for Google. I tread Google more and more as if it doesnt exist. I take the visitors I get from Google and googlize them, meaning trying to make them stay, leave their email adress or social footprint so they can come again directly without Google.

While my traffic had a steady growth over the last 5 years the share from Google fell from 80% to now down to 40% so i am less dependend on G. Maybe that is one of the new factors from Google, it rewards sites that would work without Google just fine...?

[Hissingsid]

If Panda is what I think it is (see previous post) then there is a fatal flaw in the whole concept. That is it neglects the direct effect that Google will have on its own results. If it rewards sites that fit the Panda model they will become a stronger fit to the Panda model and the whole thing becomes self fulfilling. As others have said Google just becomes a directory of sites that have been put their by the Panda model that are sustained by their fit to the Panda model that is fed by Google.

Google will end up giving users stuff that they are satisfied with, it might not be the best but they will be satisfied, it'll be OK (just about).

In fact you need a mix of sites in SERPS so that you continue to search and Google needs to provide a mechanism by which new sites have a chance to break in otherwise the Internet stagnates or other search engines take over because their is a basic human need to explore.

Cheers

Sid

[pradeepkoundal]

Since first Panda update we have experienced minor loss in traffic and ranking, however competitors are still ranking on the same positions.

[edited by: tedster at 3:24 pm (utc) on Oct 5, 2011]

[gyppo]

Google has probably achieved the opposite of what they set out to achieve, I've got a few sites that are head & shoulders above our competitors that have been hit to the tune of ~90%.

I'm reluctant to change too much because there's still so much unknown, anyone that I've seen come back hasn't changed anything. The ones that have, recover then get hit back into the abyss again next update.

So whilst those sites that we were really active with sit & rot, I've moved onto other projects. Google has just contributed to two of my sites becoming stale, there's no point me putting the effort into keeping them going when 90% of my earnings are gone.

Fail.

[Dave_Hybrid]

Sid, if that is true as you say that the Panda algo keeps rewarding the good (in G eyes) sites then isnt that the point. They want to create a clear line between good and bad and separate them. When new sites enter, they get the same evaluation and prosper or fail just like anyone else.

It doesn't change anything imo. Websites have always been evaluated by the algo and continuity loved or hated depending on what the algo things of them, it's always been self fulfilling.

I think the main issue here now is that G isnt getting it right, there are too many false positives. If and when they do get it right, in theory, i think it's a good idea. Reward the good and push the bad to oblivion.

It's what G has always tried to do in fact, they just never seem to get it bang on. The bad always seems to creep in or worse, they start punishing the good by mistake.

[Hissingsid]

Dave, I agree with you. There was something similar after Florida. Loads of people here, including myself, bleating about how their site and what had happened to it was proof that Florida was getting it wrong. It appeared that for ages Google, in the form of GoogleGuy (who I think later became Matt Cutts) were in denial. Then a few of us worked out why as well as what was happening and GoogleGuy gave us a method of communicating our examples of what was going wrong and why we thought it was. Certainly in my case Google used the examples I provided and sorted out the mess in my niche.

Until they stop just trying to faff with the data and start to listen to us now we will not get the current mess sorted.

I'm pretty sure that Panda is "right" in the short term for the majority of the web (I still think it is flawed) but there are areas at the sides of the bell curve that don't fit and where Panda has messed up a good situation.

One of my sites does not fit what I think Panda is measuring and analysing as "good" but that is because what is "good" in my niche is different to what is "good" in terms of user needs in other markets. I have other sites that have benefited greatly in different markets that do subjectively fit what is a "good" site in Panda terms.

[zeus]

This Bounce thing i hope thats just a speculation, be cause my focus is to get a user to what he/she wants as quickly as possible. Many of my visits from google gets directly to those internal pages they want, are there 5-20 sec and out again, thats what I call a good service. If this Bounce is for real I need to hide the content a user wants, means they get to the page that before delivered 100% but now they have to click a link and then another then they get to the content they want, that last page is then also "no index", is that the future.

[Andylew]

The only way google would listen is if high profile sites noindex the entire domain and this is followed virally by others - google would have no content. There would then have to be a rival engine that could index these sites - it would then have a USP, content that google doesnt have....... calling zuckerberg....

[Whitey]

because my focus is to get a user to what he/she wants as quickly as possible

If the funnel or landing page contains thin content, maybe you should consider hiding it. Google seems to be saying it doesn't like to promote doorway pages that appear in the funnel that provide no added value. Although this might suit you.

[zeus]

Whitey - the site is a image site, that page deliver the high resolution version, not much text, be cause not needed, would not benefit page, be cause the image is what the user wants.

[Whitey]

Zeus - sure , i think i understand , but did you optimize your images for " image search" by tagging them. It would be interesting to know how Panda would rank those pages and images ( not much has been said if Panda has any involvement with images , but i assume it must ).

[zeus]

About image search, there has been some changes but not huge. Im working on a new site be cause that the best way to get out of panda, not finish in anyway, but I have noticed many of the images there get found in google image search with no alt tag or anything like that, but i always thought this alt tag has not that much to do with the ranking.

[Hissingsid]

The reason that Panda is in a state of flux is because the guys at Google realise that they have got some things wrong. I wouldn't react to what we are seeing now in niches where they have got it wrong until it looks like they have stopped trying to make it right.

Sid

[Whitey]

but i always thought this alt tag has not that much to do with the ranking

Maybe some folks that are focused on images can chime in with a better answer than me, but i think image search can be very important. Especially as it seems to be your target and call to action.

Still would like to hear if it's part of Panda algo though - again i assume so as it is a potential quality / relevance signal.

[HuskyPup]

( not much has been said if Panda has any involvement with images , but i assume it must ).

Yes it did in the general SERPs, I had thousands of images demoted since, like zeus, my images do not need product descriptions, people are trying to locate them as representative widget examples for comparison purposes.

In the image search results my hand-built galleries have not suffered much at all however the Coppermine ones have been splattered all over the place, some still rank whilst some have disappeared however there has definitely been an improvement in the past few days and yesterday was one of the first post-Panda days when I actually had a pre-Panda type of day in a Coppermine gallery, the AdSense earnings for it were ok as well.

What I still do not comprehend is why were AdSense earnings slashed 50% overnight with Panda? And it was entirely my CTR I have to stress, I can nearly forecast my daily earnings now simply by halving last year's income.

[chrism]

I've noticed in the last couple of days our AdSense CTR's on non Pandalised sites have changed as well as the Pandlised ones on 'Panda days', although not in the same magnitude.

I wonder if this is a symptom of the redistribution of other people's traffic, which would be odd as i've not noticed any particular change in visitor numbers.

All I can think is that perhaps there is a different sort of Pandalisation I haven't previously considered, that a site is hit by Panda in a sense, but it removes a section of traffic but replaces it with a different sort of traffic, so the overall level remains nearly constant.

My head is hurting even contemplating that.

[Hissingsid]

All I can think is that perhaps there is a different sort of Pandalisation I haven't previously considered, that a site is hit by Panda in a sense, but it removes a section of traffic but replaces it with a different sort of traffic, so the overall level remains nearly constant.

Sounds a bit like the way Adwords finds new terms that it decides it will show your site for. Bounce rate is high for those new terms and you have to manually change them to negatives otherwise you get crap traffic.

I'm seeing something similar on WMT where new long tail terms appear in my report but they almost invariably have a very high bounce rate.

It looks like my site has taken a hit on the high traffic terms that it is perfect for and a boost on hundreds of low traffic terms for which it is not very helpful to visitors.

It looks like Google's suggestions have changed in some way and are encouraging people to be more specific in the term they select but then another change in the results they get means they find sites that don't satisfy what they are looking for.

Remember the Google CEO saying they plan to offer up the one perfect answer. Could this be what they are aiming for but wildly missing the mark?

[walkman]

So Panda can be turned off despite what they said. So surprised, NOT.

Just in time for Christmas we'll get another update. I publicly guess that Google will win this update :)!

As for bounce rate, it mostly depends on what traffic Google /Bing brings you. On my site sometimes it varies by 20-30% and there isn't a damn thing I can do.

It looks like my site has taken a hit on the high traffic terms that it is perfect for and a boost on hundreds of low traffic terms for which it is not very helpful to visitors.

Those terms are being sent to 'good sites'

If Panda is what I think it is (see previous post) then there is a fatal flaw in the whole concept. That is it neglects the direct effect that Google will have on its own results. If it rewards sites that fit the Panda model they will become a stronger fit to the Panda model and the whole thing becomes self fulfilling. As others have said Google just becomes a directory of sites that have been put their by the Panda model that are sustained by their fit to the Panda model that is fed by Google.

I believe that too. Sites have been left to die since worst traffic bring you worst user engagement, and no sane person can say that Google didn't anticipate this.

[murgatroid]

This Bounce thing i hope thats just a speculation, be cause my focus is to get a user to what he/she wants as quickly as possible.

Frankly, I doubt it's speculation. If I were Google, I'd absolutely be measuring bounce rate. That said, my take is bounce rate as a quality/user engagement signal is Google is measuring it in respect to how your site performs against other sites in the same SERPs for a particular query, and not against ALL other websites regardless of niche b/c bounce rates vary from SERP to SERP and niche to niche. So for example, if a particular query yields a 99% bounce for your site which is similar to other sites in the same query SERP, you're on par so you're fine. However, if your 99% bounce when measured against other sites in the same query SERP is really high (especially if users bounce off your site and click on another in the same SERP but don't bounce from that site...and this happend consistently), this potentially indicates poor user experience which means you've got problems.

[aristotle]

Oftentimes mis-matched traffic is the result of an ambiguous search term. In any case, a high bounce rate for one term logically shouldn't affect your rankings and traffic for other terms.

[walkman]

Oftentimes mis-matched traffic is the result of an ambiguous search term. In any case, a high bounce rate for one term logically shouldn't affect your rankings and traffic for other terms.

Bing does is that way, but Panda is a sitewide penalty when certain criteria is reached, so the entire site suffers. I know it first hand. Maybe if sections are divided clearly, it's different. maybe.

This, in the end show that way too much power is in the hand of one search engine.