Why Haven't Sites Come Back from Panda? Matt Cutts Tries to Explain

[walkman]

This is a rush(?) transcript from Dany Sullivan's blog so probably not everything is 100% correct. The italics and bolding are mine.
[searchengineland.com...]

DS: Talking about Panda, says that he’s getting a ton of emails from people who say that scraper sites are now outranking them after Panda.

MC: A guy on my team working on that issue. A change has been approved that should help with that issue. We’re continuing to iterate on Panda. The algorithm change originated in search quality, not the web spam team.
....
DS: Has it changed enough that some people have recovered? Or is it too soon?

MC: The general rule is to push stuff out and then find additional signals to help differentiate on the spectrum. We haven’t done any pushes that would directly pull things back. We have recomputed data that might have impacted some sites. There’s one change that might affect sites and pull things back.

DS: You guys made this post with 22 questions, but it sounds like you’re saying even if you’ve done that, it wouldn’t have helped yet?

MC: It could help as we recompute data. Matt goes on to say that Panda 2.2 has been approved but hasn’t rolled out yet.

DS: Reads an audience question – is site usability being considered as more of a factor?

MC: Panda isn’t directly targeted at usability, but it’s a key part of making a site that people like. Pay attention to it because it’s a good practice, not because Google says so.

Matt mentions 'pull back' but that's nonsense and very disingenuous of him. Pull back to me means letting a previously labeled bad content rank. We're talking about improved sites and content, no need to pull back, just reanalyze it.

So it's clear to me that this is a penalty. Maybe if you got links from every newspaper in the Northern Hemisphere you might escape but for the rest it looks like it depends on Google engineers. It took them 3+ months to admit it.

[danny]

Not even Google engineers have a clue in Google support forums

Given an algorithm that complex, it's not impossible that there is no one at all at Google who has a good understanding of the whole thing. I doubt most people at Google would know much about it at all, any more than most NASA engineers would understand space shuttle avionics.

Just a did [google.com...] and some of your reviews have hundreds and hundreds of citations from scholar.google.com. Damn!

Google Scholar doesn't seem to have implemented Panda-style negative screening (presumably because it's a giant whitelist anyway so it doesn't have spam problems). I'm currently getting more traffic from scholar.google.com than from google.com.

[HuskyPup]

suggy - It's important to note that, in my experience with Panda so far, Google.co.uk is completely different to Google.com and several other tlds.

I have pages climbing in .co.uk and I'm pretty sure I know why, .com is a Peperami - "A bit of an animal":-)

YMMV!

[suggy]

YMMV ?

[supercyberbob]

Your mileage may vary.

[danny]

In the original post Walkman wrote: it's clear to me that this is a penalty

I call it "negative screening" instead of "a penalty", but yes I think this is clear.

I have just blogged about this at length, but it seems to me that what Google has done is to build, using human feedback and employee appraisal, a large corpus of spam - that is, of junk or near-junk pages that rank highly on searches. They have then fed this spam corpus to a machine learning system, and applied the resulting filter across their entire index.

The problem is that the machine learning system can't evaluate lack of quality or junkness directly, so it's using measurable features of web sites and pages that correlate with those. And this is where the false positives come in.

Possibly I have just been unlucky, but quite possibly sites like mine have been actively used as models by spammers, who have copied all the features that can be easily copied, just replacing the content with auto-generated gumph.

[jinxed]

Hi suggy

If you don't mind my asking, what wrongs/ issues did you target?

:)

[suggy]

Nope - still don't get it.

I'm only interested in google.co.uk (pandalized site is a UK consumer e-commerce), so can't comment on US SERPS. Never really watch them. We cancel most orders originating from America because they are too often fraudulent.

Although, I can't say I have been through the data/ done the research for the US, I can't see any reason why Panda itself would be vastly different. After all, it wasn't it described as a roll out to the UK?!

You saying you have a different, rarer (and more fickle) breed of Panda over there?!

FWIW, I suspect not; it's the sample and the population that's different. All anomalies are a function thereof.

[walkman]

Suggy, we've down this path before ;)

I have way more than decimated my site starting on February 25th, every page is extremely well linked Home > category > product (two types of categories) and then related within each product. I have a decent PR, in fact now about 70% of all my pages are indexed daily by Google and a lot of work has gone into adding new content within the remaining pages. I can safely rule content out, especially when compared to those ranking way up.

I have another theory and I changed it but it will take a few days to see any changes. Matches my non-Pandalized sites.

For all we know Panda in non-US is a different breed. They said that the content farm problem in US is very different from UK and others so they look at different signals.

In the original post Walkman wrote: it's clear to me that this is a penalty

I call it "negative screening" instead of "a penalty", but yes I think this is clear.

I call it a penalty becuase, IMO, Google has not run the full algo yet since 2/24 so even if you fixed your content, you are still in Panda land. Yes, some disagree. Matt Cutts said that even if you fixed the site exactly like Google asked you to, you could come back in one of the supposed Panda updates. Could, to me, means "probably not but you might."

[suggy]

Walkman -- trouble is, I just can't stop myself trying to help you.

Do you search in the UK/ Use google.co.uk, out of interest? Can't say I use the US Google. But, I can tell you that e-how were every where (and I know why they still are to some extent) and ezinearticles, plus about, etc... Besides, looking at the Sistrix winners and loses, I don't see anything to disuade me from my current theory.

[walkman]

Ask yourself this then, why wasn't it released at the same time if they are identical? February 24 was Panda US and April 11th was Panda UK+.

And those caught on 2/24 are with the worst of the worst, sites that Google wants to hurt and make sure they don't escape easily.

[suggy]

I don't think Google wants to hurt anyone. Google just wants to return the best search results (in the opinion of searcher, not the webmaster/ owner). That's essential to their longterm survival (forget short-term profitability).

Think about it, since most 'content farms' were emblazoned in adsense, what financial benefit would Google have from attacking them? They were great for Google; they converted natural unpaying (for Google) listings into ones where often Google earned on the next click!

[superclown2]

You saying you have a different, rarer (and more fickle) breed of Panda over there?!

I'm in the UK. I've used proxy servers many times to see what's happening with several search terms in the USA.

Frankly the USA SERPs make our UK ones look great in comparison, IMO. And ours are completely biased in favour of boring, thin 'brand' pages which are way ahead of quality and relevant sites. Just my opinion, of course but then I'm not a PhD.

I don't think Google wants to hurt anyone

Google are hurting a lot of people. Badly. I remember the bile that was directed towards MS in the past but it is nothing to the hatred that so many people who have lost so much, so quickly, are feeling for Google because of what this company have done. If they were a UK company they would have compensation claims stacked up to the ceiling because we all have a duty of care over here not to do anything which can damage other people's well being or livelihoods.

The standard answer of course is ...."Google can do what they want, you shouldn't build your business plan on free traffic" etc etc etc. Well European judges may disagree with that interpretation. Like the Mills of God they grind extremely slowly, but extremely fine.

[proboscis]

but quite possibly sites like mine have been actively used as models by spammers

I have a Feb 24 pandalized site that has been very actively used by spammers as a model to create 1000's of spam sites.

I really don't know what's going on, I'm just saying that this did happen and I do have good information that is linked to and used by experts in my niche.

[danny]

I wrote: I'm currently getting more traffic from scholar.google.com than from google.com

That's an exaggeration. But the numbers are in a similar range now, when once it would have made no sense at all to compare them.

[suggy]

because we all have a duty of care over here not to do anything which can damage other people's well being or livelihoods

Er, what? Since when? Wouldn't that rule out any form of competition in business or the job market. "Hey, you got my job... you damaged my livelihood"! "Hey, your advertising campaign poached our customers. You can't do that because you damaged my livelihood"...?

As Tedster said previously, Google is an organisation... they're running a business... they have business goals... they don't set targets about "how many people's livelihoods they can ruin". Besides, it's a zero sum game. Didn't someone else take your place in the SERPS?!

[londrum]

it's a zero sum game. Didn't someone else take your place in the SERPS?!

not any more its not. i've seen sites occupying 5 different places on the first page.
that's quite a common occurance now that "brands" seem to be getting a hefty boost

[HuskyPup]

Er, what? Since when? Wouldn't that rule out any form of competition in business or the job market.

Hmmm...I would say superclown2 is referring to European Anti-Competitive Practices...Anti-competitive practices are best defined as strategies designed deliberately to limit the degree of competition inside a market. Such actions can be taken by one firm in isolation or a number of firms engaged in explicit or implicit collusion. Since 1998 there have been numerous investigations in industries such as chemicals, banks, pharmaceuticals, airlines, beer, and paper, plasterboard, food preservatives and computer games!

The Main Aims of Competition Policy

The aim of competition policy is promote competition; make markets work better and contribute towards increased efficiency and competitiveness of the UK economy within the European Union single market. Competition policy aims to ensure:

* Wider consumer choice in markets for goods and services.
* Technological innovation which promotes gains in dynamic efficiency.
* Effective price competition between suppliers.
* Investigating allegations of anti-competitive behaviour within markets which might have a negative effect on consumer welfare.

There are four pillars of competition policy in the UK and in the European Union:

* Antitrust & cartels: This involves the elimination of agreements which seek to restrict competition (e.g. price-fixing agreements, or cartels) and of abuses by firms who hold a dominant position in a market.
* Market liberalisation: Liberalisation involves introducing fresh competition in previously monopolistic sectors e.g. energy supply, telecommunications, air transport and postal services together with new arrangements for car retailers inside the single market.
* State aid control: Competition policy analyses examples of state aid measures by Member State governments to ensure that such measures do not artificially distort competition in the Single Market (e.g. the prohibition of a state grant designed to keep a loss-making firm in business even though it has no prospect of long-term recovery).
* Merger control: This involves the investigation of mergers and take-overs between firms (e.g. a merger between two large groups which would result in their dominating the market).

Guess what? I didn't write all that but knew where to find it:-)

[suggy]

HuskyPup

And how does this relate to google changing the way it ranks it's search results?

Google's not a monopoly, just the searcher's favourite/ biggest brand.

Google's not a cartel; we're not accusing it of colluding with other search engine's to prevent new search engines are we?

Google's not being propped up the US state, is it?

We're not accusing Google of trying to merge with someone to dominate the market?

There's competition in the market (one I heard of called Bing is backed by a pretty big company itself), the EU isn't going to stride in and say "Google: you can't be everyone's favourite! Now, go turn some folks away so they have to choose someone else."

Time for some folks to come back down to earth...

[brinked]

Lets focus on the things we do know now that panda has been around for several months now and google has released some statements regarding panda. I know a lot of people don't want to but lets start taking what Matt Cutts says as fact.

Facts:

- Panda is aimed at reducing the rankings for low quality websites. Basically the reason behind panda is to push down the websites whose only purpose is to put out a bunch of useless content and profit off it otherwise known as "content farms". Why do people put out content farms? To make money off them.

- Matt Cutts has just said media sites with no text such as flickr have nothing to do with panda. This is a very big clue. A lot of people have been assuming that panda was targeting lack of content but it appears the problem may be the actual content itself. What does this tell me? This tells me that panda is focused on hitting sites who only put text on pages for the sole purpose of having it rank.

- Panda has some bugs. Google is aware of the issue on scraper sites outranking the original source and they are in the process of correcting it. No big surprise here but it is good to receive some confirmation that they are aware of this issue and are going to correct it.

- The reason why most panda effected sites have not recovered is because google has not re ran its data yet. According to MC, there is going to be a new update coming out so hopefully we will start hearing about some sites recovering.

- Ads play a role in panda. I am going to put this down as a fact regardless of who disagrees with me. The ads themselves will not get you in panda but it is all about intention of your content. If you have ads on poor content pages, this throws a signal to google that you are trying to profit off your low quality content. I have seen 2 thin affiliate sites by the same owner come back to the top 10 after panda was released and both sites have all the affiliate links removed. This is a strong indication to me that google is now ranking these sites because they no longer have ads on it. You can feel free to call this a theory but I have seen enough data and done enough research to label this as a fact in my mind.

[suggy]

Basically the reason behind panda is to push down the websites whose only purpose is to put out a bunch of useless content and profit off it otherwise known as "content farms".

-- Couldn't agree more.

but it appears the problem may be the actual content itself.

-- Couldn't agree more

panda is focused on hitting sites who only put text on pages for the sole purpose of having it rank.

-- Hmmm, or would it be better to say... "panda is focused on hitting sites who only put text on pages for the sole purpose of having it rank and that users don't like or find useful." -- That last bit's important. Google are not going after a business model; they're trying to increase searcher satisfaction.

Panda has some bugs. Google is aware of the issue on scraper sites outranking the original source and they are in the process of correcting it.

-- I would call them unforeseen consequences. It's not that Panda did it's job badly, but Google didn't foresee what the short-term outcome would be.

The reason why most panda effected sites have not recovered is because google has not re ran its data yet.

Here I disagree. I think new data has been folded in several times.

If you have ads on poor content pages, this throws a signal to google that you are trying to profit off your low quality content.

-- Google's not trying to stop people profiting off low quality content. C'mon...think about it. Think back to Google's objective. You're almost there. Just one step removed....