Forum Moderators: martinibuster
They claim that I have been clicking on my own ads. Which I have not.
No recourse, just, <paraphrase>"We cannot reveal our algorithm, but we reviewed your account again and confirm that invalid clicks were generated with your account"</paraphrase>
Account closed, end of story, see ya'- next.
I have not clicked on any of my ads. I have emailed them several times and this is all I get above.
Has anyone else experienced this?
$250 isn't much, but it's a big deal when they take about 90 days to pay and then when you are about to get your first check they boot you.
How is it possible for them to confirm that I've been clicking on my ads when I haven't?
Thanks in advance for advice,
Rusty
[edited by: Jenstar at 4:43 pm (utc) on Feb. 11, 2004]
[edit reason] No email quotes as per TOS, thanks! [/edit]
I regularly see my Fastclick earnings from the day before drop by a few pennies from what they had been. My understanding was that Burst, Tribal Fusion, and others also do this.
I know people who are part of Findwhat's program, which is largely for domain owners with considerable traffic. At least, that is the situation my friends are in. Findwhat runs a pretty severe audit I think on a monthly basis. By severe, you lose a few percentage points of your earnings. That is what I seem to recall, at least. If they have a question of any kind regarding a click, it is removed. But they won't drop a publisher until a strong consistent pattern develops.
Obviously, any clicks coming from the IP that logs in should be discounted without further ado unless it happens repeatedly. Things do get clicked by accident and so forth, and we all visit our own sites.
This type of internal auditing would be better for publishers and better for advertisers. You might lose a few pennies per day, but it would be worth it not to feel vulnerable. And it would be good for advertisers as well.
I don't know what type of internal auditing they do, but it should be escalated rather than simply dropping publishers.
There is a lot of things Google can do to make their program better. Another approach would be to drop their requirements for their premiere program for CPM from 20 million pageviews to a more reasonable number like 5 million or maybe even less. Harder to fake CPM in any significant numbers than CPC. Many publishers might like the consistency of this, even if they earn a tiny bit less on an annual basis.
Google will be forced to improve their system due to competition. With the launch of Adsonar and others, and the maturation of programs like MarketBanker and similar, they're going to have to get better to stay at the forefront. With all else being equal, I'd feel better about a company that left me less vulnerable as a publisher, and that is who I'd choose to give my traffic to. What surprises me is that such a sophisticated and knowledgeable company like Google isn't taking an approach more along the lines of seasoned advertising networks like Fastclick.
Google Adsense is one of the greatest things to ever happen to webpublishers. I'd say it's up there with Linux, PHP, and MySQL. :) Really, they are just too great a company to take such a ham-handed approach to dealing with publishers.
>> Obviously, any clicks coming from the IP that logs in should be discounted without further ado
Too simplistic. What about AOL? What about other networks where over the course of a day large number of people are using the same IP?
>> I don't know what type of internal auditing they do, but it should be escalated rather than simply dropping publishers
There is no indication that they simply drop publishers. There have been a handful of cases of being dropped for fraudulent clicks many of whom turned out to be people inadvertentely violating TOS by having the ads on the wrong pages, encouraging users to click on ads, or having a loyal visitor base who kept clicking ads.
actually it does not state it inside the TOS but rather inside the FAQ... so maybe thats what google needs to fix...
That still strikes me as someone who considers cheating OK as long as he doesn't get caught. You don't need a doctorate in law to know that clicking on the ads (whatever the background reason, to earn yourself more money .... or the poor "other" excuse some webmasters use i.e. to check the links) is wrong. There's no excuse for not reading the TOS and FAQ but even if someone hasn't - to claim that they didn't know it was wrong is completely ridiculous. To claim that they knew it was wrong but "Google didn't mention it in the right place" displays a cynical crookedness, an exploitative streak; the fact that Google did mention it in the right places makes it sound like a problem comprehending the TOS and FAQ. As Visi says, maybe it's about "basic education" (in both literacy and morals)
Rustyace, it looks like apart from Jenstar's example nobody else has been re-instated. I know of no other case myself. Sorry I could be more encouraging.
Too simplistic. What about AOL? What about other networks where over the course of a day large number of people are using the same IP?
As Brett suggested - can be done by cookie, set when a publisher successfully logs into their control panel on a PC.
TJ
It is apparent, to me at least, that occasional clicking on my ads is NOT what got me booted in the first place. That is obvious in the rampant self clicking that the Google Adsense program is experiencing by other members who click on their ads everyday.
There has to be another reason why they feel that their was fraud involved. I did recently start a new website and added my Google Ads to this new website. I feel that is the more logical explanation as to why I was booted from Google.
How does one add a new website to the Adsense Program without violating the Adsense Policy?
Rusty
[edited by: Jenstar at 4:24 pm (utc) on Feb. 12, 2004]
[edit reason] TOS # 24 [/edit]
Is not a matter if it can be done better. Everything can be done better. It is a matter of adhering to terms that you have agreed to. It is simple, really. Anyone who advocates otherwise is acting irresponsibly and not in your best interests.
See adsense FAQ number 4
Now if you try for muliple logins that's when you violate the google TOS but it does say you may create multiple accounts if you manage sites that require separate payments.
(that means the cheque is paid to someone else other than yourself)
In fact the FAQ's are very good because they tell you exactly what you can and can't do which is what you agree to as you sign up!
ncw164x
Also, the argument that Google should just ignore a publisher's own clicks has been made time and again on this forum. There are two problems with that approach:
1) It doesn't discourage publisher fraud, because there are no consequences if a publisher decides to "try and get away with it."
2) Advertisers want to know that Google is being aggressive in protecting their interests. Every time a publisher comes on this forum and complains that he got booted for invalid clicks, that's great publicity for Google. Why? Because it tells advertisers, "Google has a zero-tolerance policy toward fraud."
AdSense is a great income opportunity for publishers. Why abuse it? Instead, focus your energies on creating great sites that will keep readers and advertisers coming back. That way, you'll be earning money over the long haul, not just until you get caught for violating Google's AdSense TOS.
That is why the post you are responding to has a question mark.
>> I don't know what type of internal auditing they do, but it should be escalated rather than simply dropping publishers
>There is no indication that they simply drop publishers. There have been a handful of cases of being dropped for fraudulent clicks many of whom turned out to be people inadvertentely violating TOS by having the ads on the wrong pages, encouraging users to click on ads, or having a loyal visitor base who kept clicking ads.
You have no idea what number of publishers are actually dropped. Nor do I. What I do know is that these type of threads appear with some frequency for adsense, but much more rarely for any other network. And that the emails for fraudulent clicks appear to be sent out with even greater frequency.
[edited by: bearcat at 3:19 pm (utc) on Feb. 12, 2004]
I have yet to see any indication that Googles actually discounts fraud short of dropping publishers.
2) Advertisers want to know that Google is being aggressive in protecting their interests. Every time a publisher comes on this forum and complains that he got booted for invalid clicks, that's great publicity for Google. Why? Because it tells advertisers, "Google has a zero-tolerance policy toward fraud."
See above. That a few publishers get knocked doesn't mean a lot. If somebody is consciously planning to defraud Adsense, they are not going to click on their own ads then log in from the same computer. Usually this is done due to mistakes or people simply being clueless.
I am arguing for the same system that I have seen implemented by Findwhat, and also apparently Fastclick and others. If you prefer to have Google's sytem, that is your call.
Also take into account that there hasn't been a single ad network with this kind of reach {amongst small and medium sized publishers}. Therefore, all complaints are multiplied by a factor of 10X or 100X. Furthermore, this is the first time that a lot of people deal with advertising networks, and for some people the first time a lot enter into a business relationship. So you have to take that into account.
Your earlier post, if it was directed towards me, was completely inappropriate, btw.
Off the top of my head one name comes to mind: SI {a lot of people have talked about them as being unfair, while others praise their ability to catch cheaters}
The only post that was directed towards you was the one that started "Bearcat:" and this one of course ;)
Furthermore, this is the first time that a lot of people deal with advertising networks, and for some people the first time a lot enter into a business relationship. So you have to take that into account.
I think you've hit on an important point--and one that's illustrated by the "Have you got your check yet?" threads that we see every month on this forum.
I agree with your comment about AdSense's reach among small publishers. I suspect that many of the publishers who complain about AdSense would never have the opportunity to complain about Burst, Tribal Fusion, etc. simply because they don't meet those networks' traffic minimums and other requirements.
Also, it's possible that, having opened a Pandora's Box with its initial quest for Amazon-style ubiquity, Google's AdSense is now pulling back a bit and giving less slack to sites that generate more administrative overhead than revenue. If unprofitable publishers get mad and leave or get booted for questionable clicks, that may not be a bad thing for Google from a strictly economic point of view.
I am very jaded, but you can see that they really get excited about this whenever one of their guys talks about adsense.
This is exactly what I was doing. Focusing on content.
My basic problem with Adsense program is that they won't tell me what I did that was fraud. Just that it is end of story.
Rusty
Has anyone, ever, successfully been re-instated? IF NOT, this discussion is over.
Rusty, I'd like to see you being the first person who has been reinstated. Have a look at my earlier suggestion/s. Give that a shot and please come back and tell us what Google said.
I was reinstated after being kicked out. I won't go into the details of why, but I would suggest the following:
Here are some tips:
1. Be patient with Google yet persistent. They do respond to emails. Sometimes it just takes awhile.
2. Be polite, apologetic etc. in stating your case. Acknowledge the problem and offer a solution.
3. Explain why the ADsense program is important to you.
4. Cross your fingers. Ultimately, the decision is up to Google and except whatever they decide.
----------------------------------------------
The ADsense program is evolving and there are people behind the decision making process. Their system is not perfect as we all know, but if it is in Google's best interest to have your website reinstated you will be.
Best of luck.
EFV: You are right that there are unprofitable publishers in adsense. But call me crazy, I really think the geeks in Google really see the ability to reach the most people and be able to give the really small publisher a couple of hundred dollars a year {or maybe less than a hundred} as one of their primary goals.
I'm not saying that isn't true; I'm merely saying that, while the threshold of admission may be low, the threshold for expulsion may also be low in some cases. And the more the program is manipulated, the more skeptical and less forgiving those Google geeks are likely to become.
(BTW None of this is aimed specifically at Rusty. It's just intended to be a general suggestion.)
Thanks for your response.
I guess that I'm frustrated at trying so hard to follow every letter of the agreement that when I got kicked off it was like being fired from a JOB that I thought that I was doing a really good job at, and the boss didn't.
I was creating content that Google was easily able to match with paying customers who wanted their ads matched to my content.
On pages that I was only getting PSA's after a week I removed the Adsense ads from those pages (because PSA's mean no key words for Google to match with) and only left them on solid pages with solid content.
I realize I don't have the world's greatest amount of traffice flowing through (about 300+ clicks a day) but I can't tell you what a rush it was everyday logging in and seeing that I had earned $2 or $5 and sometimes more. It wasn't much, but it more than paid for the website that I had designed.
That is the frustrating part for me. I have no idea what exactly I did that was "fraud" that merited me being booted. I don't know what they define as "fraud" because the occasional clicking on one's ads certainly doesn't qualify as "fraud" or most of the people in the plan would have been kicked off by now.
I just needed to hear that at least 1 person out their had actually made it, to give me the persistence to fight on.
I know when my wife finally made it onto the Google Answers team they made her go through loops that were crazy as far as I was concerned. But after following all of the weird stuff that they made her go through, she made it.
I guess I need to have the same attitude.
Thanks for all of the informative input.
I have to say that this is one hyper-active forum with some serious moderating going on. It has made for an interesting conversation with a multi-tude of different people/personalities/experiences.
Rusty
I have very similar experience like you, but in my case daily earnings are quite bigger than your total money :( They dumped me from AdSense three days AFTER "payment sent" message appears and I never received my XX XXX USD :(
OK, I can understand that they need to protect publishers from "invalid clicks" but I can't understand few things in my situation:
-that they booted site that have enormous high and constant CTR for months ( with few thousands clicking visitors daily ) without any question or explanation
- that they stopped payment for month that is already processed, already expired "30 days waiting period" and message " payment sent" appears in control panel few days before disabling account.
Very frustrating :(
As I said before - I was very frightened cause my site started to be very popular two months after my joining to AdSense and my CTR jumped more than 300% in just one day and was constantly high for months. So I'm living proof than they wouldn't dump sites that have very high fluctuations.
I was quite aware that their system will raise red flag and that they will constantly monitor my site to detect anything unusual - and they didn't find anything wrong for two months during my site daily generates enormous amount of money. And you saw how this story ended badly :(
BTW. You wouldn't have any problem to cache cheque that you already received - I received my for month before and cached it normally.
As I said before, I don't believe in any "conspiracy theory" especially cause behind this program was very respectable company like Google but some things just doesn't looks right :(
I am pretty sure they refund the adwords advertisers -
[webmasterworld.com...]
Regarding the sites which have got the boot from adsense, has there been any long term effect with regards to not being listed in the google database or are the sites still listed
Just a question which came to mind because no one has ever passed any comments about this.
No, my site was badly affected from " Florida " but currently position is better than ever - during my participation in Adsense there was standard pattern that about 20 new visitors came from Google search in every hour. Few weeks after terminating account, this behavior dramaticly changes to 80-100 new visitors every hour.
Also note that they don't accuse *you* of generating invalid clicks. They just found that invalid clicks "happened". If you can find any irregularities in your own logfiles, then you might have a basis to further discuss matters with them.
Is there any chance that your employees/friends/family clicked on any ads on your site? That would be strictly prohibited by the AdSense TOS. "Invalid clicks" doesn't have to be a bot.
Could you tell us how many clicks you have been getting? Just curious whether adsense iron fist only strikes at big or small sites...
I just spoke with someone that will be doing the same thing in the near future and have already signed up for their launch here in a few weeks.
So if Google takes me back or not, I'm going to have a different "eyes wide open" approach to this.
What Google is doing is fine by them because a single individual such as myself has no recourse and they know that.
But if there is competition for the space that I freely leased them, then they will be less likely to walk through the yard with a big stick hitting the little dogs whenever they feel like it.
If someone else is vying for the same space that I so freely and blindly gave to Google to use on the assumption that I would get paid, then Google has to be really on their toes.
Google has cleverly written into their TOS that you can't have any other type program listed on the same page as their Adsense ads and is probably just waiting to remove a bunch of people that try to use both systems.
It will be an interesting battle here soon.
I for one will be looking on with eager anticipation.
Since I'm no longer in Adsense I can publish my stats.
<snip>
Does Adsense work, absolutely. Is it a good idea, absolutely.
Just open your eyes and make sure that you are not doing anything that will cost you your account. And even if you aren't doing anything wrong, be ready to be booted. Don't count your Google dollars until the check is cashed.
Rusty
[edited by: Jenstar at 2:28 am (utc) on Feb. 18, 2004]
[edit reason] Removed stats as per member's request [/edit]
I made sure that those key words were used in my content website that funneled clients to my main check site.
I then bid on Google Adwords to funnel business to my funnel site and then onto my check website.
It works very effectively. Because most people want information which is what my funnel site provides and then my check site provides the service that is described.
It took my wife and I about 2 weeks to design and implement the site and with Google Adsense program funding our endeavours everything was looking great until they pulled the plug.
Now we're back to square 1. Needless to say I have stopped all of my Google Adwords.
If they don't need me I sure don't want to spend money on them.
I was taking all of the Adsense money and dumping back into the Adwords program. So in a sense Google got all of the money either way. Now they're just aren't earning any more money off of me.
Rusty
