[edited by: Brett_Tabke at 8:12 pm (utc) on June 16, 2004]
[edit reason] [webmasterworld.com...] [/edit]
Forget banks - they are only interested if you have a major financial stake invested already.
Friends working in business never works, it's too personal and close. They are great for advice, but not as employees or financial backers.
Family could be an option if family members are financially stable. Trust is the key here.
Best strategy would be to automate as much as possible to start with, then once something is built, perhaps it will reap rewards.
Use very cheap forms of advertising:
Press releases
Email Marketing
Search Engines
Link Exchanges
A search engine's gotta have some way of letting the world know about it, as well as a way to earn money with it.
I wonder if the local UK newspapers/press will notice it when it becomes more efficient?
Because AFAIK, the australian press/newspaper helped out Mooter - hope the same happens to UKWizz.
Sid
Mirago are full of stories where they were shunned by ad agencies, almost being laughed out the door. Now those same agencies are taking them out to lunch etc etc. I wouldn't exactly say Mirago was a strong brand, would you?
It's all about advertiser numbers unless you wish to sell your index as a co branded version, and there isn't a huge market for that at all. Mirago seems to have nearly 200 partners that use it's index, not bad for a small company in the UK. Something that Kellysearch or Web Finder would be proud of....
For starters they've been established for 200 years!
That's a while longer than any other directory or search engine.
They also spend about 1 million per year on advertising alone.
I do like Mirago, it's very clean looking - yeah nice.
But getting back, if UKwizz is to be successful, it's going to need a gimmick, cos at the moment it's just another UK SE.
Local press advertising is no good for a start up, it's too local a readership - you know not a large enough exposure to be useful.
A search engine's gotta have some way of letting the world know about it...
This thread is doing a great job at the moment :)
Here are my faves:
Webcrawler - has the world forgotten this engine?
Mooter is quite nice, as I like the cluster thing.
Hotbot is still quite cool and Ask Jeeves of course!
But I feel comfortable with a portal as me homepage, as it's a one stop shop. With say 2 other 'search engines' as a back up to fine tune results, and/or find 'nuts'.
I really would like to see another portal, as good as Yahoo/Google are - my confidence in them is going.
So I'm hoping this UKwizz or indeed anyone else can supply a Googlish portal to replace Google etc.
But a General Portal. If not, I'll have to be content with Ask or Yahoo for the time being.
I do get a bit worried with all these new UK engines popping up, I think I counted 204 in total.........
I'm stunned by all. Will there be a massive take over/buy up offer, will UK wizz and the smaller guys survive?
I don't have the answer.
What frustrates me is that, these individuals/companies go to the trouble of setting up a good functional engine, yet to hardly ever have it used (apart from the very few), and as a result they go bust!
Perfectly good engine - deaded, pushing up the flowers etc. sob sob.
I mean take webcrawler - it's still popular, but we never hear anything about it, no news, no press etc.
Now we have 204 of these, Are they all being used?
I'd really really like some answers to this. Cos they can't all be used to a major extent? I'm reffering to the 2nd tiers here.
Would someone have UK plus as a home page for instance, or would you go for a portal?
Would anyone here set UK wizz as a homepage?
Yup, lots and lotsa Webmaster traffic - too bad WebmasterWorld ain't a UK-specific forum ;)
Sid
[edit] reason: grammatical coherence [/edit]
[edited by: sidyadav at 11:48 am (utc) on June 22, 2004]
I do get a bit worried with all these new UK engines popping up, I think I counted 204 in total.Most of them are not real search engines with real indices and hardware. They are just using feeds from Overture or whatever other supplier to fool the punter into thinking that they are using a real engine. The number of real SEs popping up in the UK, especially indexing on a total UK basis, is probably no more than a handful each year.
Regards...jmcc
As you may have noticed we don't bother to discuss new 'PPC Affiliate' engines unless they have something different.
And what about the feed suppliers, are they not concerned about this practise?
Google and Overture currently have a system to check 'phantom clicks' on Adwords - so do they monitor who they supply their feeds to?
Do they really check them out. Or is it just about money?
Cos if Google is supplying to 'anyone', I'd be concerned. As a user and advertiser.
It is just commercially sound practice.
This has been discussed at length see these threads:
PPC Affiliate Search Threads [google.co.uk]
the real challenge
Is getting people to use it. Even the best product needs a name that people want to type in or have use of previously... in some ways looksmart.co.uk could have been a good starting block for them. Not sure that the name "UKWizz" is quite right...
Good luck on the content and on-going set up though
There are way too many SE's with the term UK in them.
I hardly type in UK anyway, and Wizz? I can see the thinking behind the word, meaning fast or quick or something, but will anyone think to type it in?
I suppose once the brand is well known, it shouldn't be a problem. But the problem I've found with choosing domains is that all the good ones are gone, and if you make a mistake, as I've done in the past - you have to start the promotion all over again with the new domain.
Or at least change/update information where the old domain is listed.
It's a complete nightmare!
Better off selecting 3 or 4 domains, register them all, and test the response. Or you could try to incorporate a strong keyword into each domain.
It's difficult. I would suggest going for an easy name to remember, something that rolls off the tounge.
Yahoo works, as does Lycos etc. Notice that they are both short, as you don't want to give people too long a word to type or remember.
UK search was probably taken - yep it's tough.
Names that say what it is - or what it does are best.
If not, then you can always place a couple of words into the design that explains the function of the service.
You need searchable words, and unfortunately UK Wizz ain't it.
All of the major PPC providers and Spidering engines supply their results to third party sites.For most major search engines, this is their primary revenue stream. However it is a highly contested market and a new SE would have a lot of difficulty breaking into this market at the moment unless it offered something exclusive. The backend for this kind of operation is considerable because it requires marketing and administration over and above that required by an internet facing SE with minimal advertising and no affiliates.It is just commercially sound practice.
Regards...jmcc
Also, the result page layout is a little different too - getting better there.
Sid
It would depend on what you mean by results. If they provided a News service, then I would agree with you - sites with daily news - now there is a big need for that. But not a large enough want for SE results alone.
There wouldn't be enough directories etc in the world to supply services to anyway - therefore it wouldn't be worth it financially.
Providing results might be one source of finance - but it's not the primary one. I'd say that advertising is the main source of income.
UK wizz would be looking to this.
A primary source would be charges for a basic entry, say £20 per listing. That way, companies would keep paying for entry, especially if you charge per year or per URL submitted!
Another is some kind of Advanced entry etc etc.
Supply of their search results "this is their primary revenue stream."At this level it is not simple sites but other SEs taking feeds and branding the search engine results as their own. News feed services exist and are in common use. I think Moreover would be one of the more popular examples.It would depend on what you mean by results. If they provided a News service, then I would agree with you - sites with daily news - now there is a big need for that. But not a large enough want for SE results alone.
There wouldn't be enough directories etc in the world to supply services to anyway - therefore it wouldn't be worth it financially.So why do all the major search engines have this kind of branded results/custom search engine programme again? :)
Providing results might be one source of finance - but it's not the primary one. I'd say that advertising is the main source of income.No it is the primary because it involves contracts and set up fees. Advertising is a fickle, traffic driven, all or nothing revenue stream whereas feeds provide a fixed fee and a traffic based fee.
A primary source would be charges for a basic entry, say £20 per listing. That way, companies would keep paying for entry, especially if you charge per year or per URL submitted!It is not a pay for inclusion directory. It is a search engine and it has to build a significant float of websites to encourage traffic. Then if you start charging for basic inclusion, you are up against the free SEs like Google et al and a lot of potential customers will ask why they should pay and then walk away. Charging for express inclusion may work but in the developmental phase this is suicide.
Regards...jmcc
I would suggest that they are hoping to sell their feed to other types of website - not just SE's or directories.
There are a lot of portals out there without search services, but that doesn't mean the web site owners will snap this up.
I never said it was a pay for inclusion directory, I only commented on the types of paid inclusion options.
Okay, you think it's a search engine that doesn't accept charges - but we don't know if this is their strategy or not, so speculation is pointless. I would think they will come on here and inform us of their plans.
I don't think there is anything wrong with charging for inclusion. Do nightclubs not charge an entry fee?
They then still charge for drinks on top of that.
Don't forget, that this is their business and if they want to make a charge in return for the use of their web space - then I think that's fair.
People forget that. My site is web space - valuable space, it also deals with an important area of interest, you won't get anywhere - so why can't webmasters charge for their services?
It's all very well putting the world to rights, and we all do it, but people don't have the right to run other people's companies/sites, and suggesting whether Wizz or anyone else can charge for this and that is really nobody's business except the site owner.
But getting back on point, I think as long as the charge is reasonable - not too expensive, and if you give good value for money, a small charge is very doable indeed.
I boils down to what you offer. If Wizz ends up offering something that Yahoo doesn't - then why can't they make a charge?
Lot's of advertisers will pay you know. As long as you don't rip anybody off - then it's okay.
How easy is it to make a PayPal Merchant Account, where users click on a "Buy Now" link and pay for it? Very easy.
And that not only applies to search engines, but to any content site.
However, how hard is it to get the adverisers themselves? Very hard - only possible if you have a reputated site (as opposed to a simple content site with AdSense - nothing else).
Even Matt Wells from Gigablast agrees ;):
"Money is derived from selling search services on my products page. At this point I don't think I'll put up advertisements unless I need the revenue to support Gigablast or myself."
Sid
"So why do all the major search engines have this kind of branded results/custom search engine programme again?"Branded search engines and search feeds are not end-user products. You seem to be confusing them with the 'add our searchengine to your website' facility a lot of SEs make available for the end users. The high end of the search engine business is very different from that seen by the end user. The target market for this kind of branded search is mainly comprised of the ISPs and national Portals rather than small directories and niche portals.I would suggest that they are hoping to sell their feed to other types of website - not just SE's or directories.
There are a lot of portals out there without search services, but that doesn't mean the web site owners will snap this up.
Regards...jmcc
branded search? You mean only directed at certain classes of customer - which really translates to "if you don't spend large amounts of cash - we don't want to know you"
I disagree with that attitude. Big Mistake.
As I see it - search services are nothing more than another service.
More functional way of selling perhaps, but none the less - a form of sales.
Very basic indeed. And seeing as anyone with a fairly good site can simply pay for these services to get them, I don't see why this is a Major Player only environment.
How many times has a large company rung you to sell a web service to you? They will target anyone with a phone number these days, and I think it's wrong to judge whether one service is meant for one type of business and not another.
End User is just me who uses a product, end users don't have to be mega-rich to be important customers.
That's what everyone forgets. So are you saying that:
Customer A spends £100K is more important than
Customer B who only spends £10K?
What if B is MD of a Multi million brand, and you treat them less favourably - will they return?
So because a website isn't a major brand - they get shunned.
I see. So does that mean UK Wizz will get shunned?
or how about not targeting Search Buddy - that's a fairly new one.
So because I'm (any company) not considered to be a major ISP/brand, then I'm not entitled to a certaim service?
Forget this High end stuff. Yeah, there may be a high end, but todays low end are tomorrows High.
Treat every newcomer as a potential customer, cos a business cannot afford to categorise and label anyone -especially where a volatile medium like the web is concerned.
Companies can go bust just like that. All it takes is bad management.
Now if Wizz turns out to be special in some way, it will be interesting to see if they treat certain customers differently. I'm not saying profit isn't important, I'm saying there's a way to go about generating it.
Some companies get too big for their boots, and then service suffers.
I think there is a real danger there.
"The target market for this kind of branded search is mainly comprised of the ISPs and national Portals rather than small directories and niche portals."There is the world and there is your view of how things should be. You can argue against the reality all you want but branded search is big business. It is not aimed at small players and low traffic directories. It is measured in thousands of searches rather than tens of searches and it allows for heavy traffic.branded search? You mean only directed at certain classes of customer - which really translates to "if you don't spend large amounts of cash - we don't want to know you"
I disagree with that attitude. Big Mistake.
As I see it - search services are nothing more than another service.You are missing a fundamental element of search. Search is no longer just a simple sales channel or simply a service. It is the means by which users navigate the web.
Regards...jmcc
They are supposed to be built to make search life easier. I recently had a conversation with a client and asked if they valued technology over simplicity.
They wanted something easy to search with. They were concerned about the amount of cash being spent in unnecessary technology.
For instance I'm concerned that vast sums of cash are being thrown into technology, when all is needed is a simple keyword facility. What about spending some of that cash on driving lot's of traffic to clients.
Do clients not buy the service for that reason?
"It is the means by which users navigate the web"
Yep it is indeed. It doesn't matter how advanced the search is when you still get inaccurate results, and it takes you half an hour to find what you want.
Now you can't deny that. You won't get that problem with a small niche directory.
Yes, brand search may be a fact - but so are inaccurate searches.
When I do a search, I expect to find something fast. I don't want to spend 20 mins sifting through rubbish, then find out that what I want isn't under whatever I clicked on.
Of course I'm ranting, cos it's true. It takes way too long to do a search these days.
I did a search on Kellysearch today for Domain Reg companies and up came a Courier firm in those results.
And this is from a company who wanted £1200 from me for some advertising. Google is the same.
I can't be the only one that thinks like this.
So much for their brand Search eh.
Do you want me to prove this?
I was pleased to see the new search engine and what makes it different is the fact it is not a PPC clone.
Getting quality serps is only one aspect - winning new traffic is the major challenge.
Maybe even start bookmarking it
Then I did some digging, and it looks like you can fully index about 300,000 web pages for about 20 bucks a month including software, spidering and hosting.
Does this mean that the wizz index has a limit, and that it has already reached it? If so, how many web pages has it got? Free pint at Pub Con to whoever can reveal the size of this index that we were supposed to be talking about.
You aren't going to read them all surely......
I would say that nobody ever goes past the first 6 pages. If you can't find what you want in the first 6 - I'd give up and look for another engine.
What is it they say, People look at a web page for 30 seconds. After that if they can't find the link they want.....
Okay millions of results sounds impressive, but is anybody in their right mind going to look at every single page?
This is about power - search engine power. A rep once said to me that the basic entries are useless, from a advertising viewpoint.
He's right. The first page on any engine is all that matters right?
3000 results is pretty good, if you ask me. Sounds like it's a one man operation, but there's nothing wrong with that.
As long as it does the job!
In reality, there maybe more than 4 million results for a general query, but the clustering clusters it - this helps differentiating the results (so you have a wider option of results to choose from - as opposed to the first 1,000 results from a single domain).
Sid
I don't think it will though. Mooter has the perfect design for clustering results.
But we need a UK version! I wonder what UK wizz charge for their advertising?
You see, the problem we have is that the little guy just cannot afford to advertise. It's too pricy.
So we need an engine that gives great exposure - at an affordable price. Say £50 to £150 per year.
With traffic returns of 1 million visitors per year guaranteed.
That would be nice! Obviously that would only be one ad source, so if we had 3 or 4 options like that, it would be good.
Everything is PPC though, do we really need another PPC? What's wrong with paid for inclusion.
I might start following UK Wizz, just to see if it comes up with the goods. It might take a few years for that to happen - I've got a feeling.
