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We charted excellent early rankings for four clients who were ranking top 5's for all targeted keywords with many #1's after their submission to the free engines, Ink, AV, AJ and Lycos paid subs.
Upon inclusion into Yahoo we observed the loss of all listings in Google and AOL. These clients were submitted after Yahoo's implosion late last year. Talk about no ROI!
Has anyone else noticed this?
Thx, Jambad
First - cause & effect - just because you do something (like list) and it displays a negative result does mean the result is a direct occurence of your work.
It's quite arrogant to believe the rest of the world (surrounding your ranks) are standing still.
If you sumitted 1 listing and two competitior below you submitter two the appearance would be negative.
If competitors below you are link exchanging and your are not the appearance again would be negative.
If a competitor's precise (single) listing anywhere is more targeted than your (not you don't necessarily get the best possible link anchor text at Yahoo) but a competitor may in fact get this from a reciprocal exchange again... the appearance of your Yahoo listing would be negative.
It is also reasonable to assume that new sites and pages are added to the index during the same time as your Yahoo listing - bearing in mind that Yahoo results is back by Google if those same new sites/pages are more competitive the appear again would be negative.
and another 100 possible negative affects also exist.
Partially correct a Yahoo listing is simply another link (although paid for) and quite frankly a much hard link to get. In the end a single "link" doesn't effect much by itself therefore the flux of other things make it appear more negative (or even positive) than it really is.
Those are all valid points as to why a website ranking would slide. I am talking about #1 listings in Google and AOL one day and as soon as we found our website in the Yahoo directory we searched again and were nowhere in the listings.
We passed it off as a coincidence with the first three client websites, but now we are going back and drawing some timelines and they are all pointing to the time of Yahoo inclusion.
Bottom line... Yahoo inclusion is a waste of $299. We have achieved top listing in Google without being included in Yahoo.
Four client sites are not a good sample rate for your conclusions.
I am not disagreeing with you, with the expections to say (as before) 1 single link (unless maybe a PR10 link with few other outbounds or a banned page) does not make your clients web site/page, float or sink.
There are too many other variables like something change 3 month ago but just now affecting the ranks.
Bottom line... Yahoo inclusion is a waste of $299. We have achieved top listing in Google without being included in Yahoo.
As for a waste of time IMHO -- not so.
As for top listing in Google without Yahoo... excellent - keep up the good work.
If you truly believe Yahoo listing negatively affected your clients - have Yahoo remove them. I'll bet the results will not have the reverse affect.
If they do... write a book... many 10's of thousands of webmasters will be very interested in what you have uncovered. (including Yahoo I suspect).
It's a little difficult to visualize how the "love triangle" will unfold.;)
a client site went from #8 to #1 the update after the yahoo directory inclusion with no other links or tweaking.
will update after the next update.
DaveN
If it will make you feel better with yourself then go right ahead. Big big mistake IMHO.
You really dont want that traffic that comes directly from the directory?
I also find it hard to believe that at Yahoo listing would cause a drop in rankings at other engines. Why would it?
(I do think there are real and valid questions as to the current value of the Yahoo directory listing now that Yahoo has devalued the results display from that source.)
If it were me, I'd leave 'em in place. At most, I'd remove one listing and see what happened. I doubt if they will re-include the sites without another full fee if it turns out that removal was a mistake.
If you are not updating, optimizing, link exchanging as fast or faster than those competitiors around these sites the clients sites will slide in rank position.
This is a given.
Removing those Yahoo listings will help them drop further.
Really think about this, what is more reasonable to assume?
If I were your client with a Yahoo listing for $300, at rank position #20 and you removed the listing (because you believe Yahoo negatively affect my rank position #10) - and I didn't get my money back and further - lost more rank position since one less quality link...
I would call you incompetent (If I were the client - and you guessed the wrong way).
when in doubt jambad... make it sound convincing.:)
When our clients websites were included in Yahoo's directory they edited the titles and descriptions drastically. This changed the score in Google's algo dropping the sites in Google and AOL listings.
hmmm... if you mean your client's changed their titles and description of their own web pages and a drop occurred - yes I agree.
If you mean that Yahoo changed your submitted "suggested titles and description" for the listing... not really.
With more precise or exact keywords/keyphrases (in the anchor text) will offer more weight and thus more potentially for better ranking and less precise or less exact keywords/keyphrases produces less potential of better ranking...
However, both of them are still "potential" improvements over your current realized weight to the page.
In other words... it's like gasoline for your car - regular and supreme both allow you to get to work, supreme costs more, and supreme allows the car to run smoother thus farther than regular...
Having neither makes you late!
A superb link (and anchor) help ranking more than a so so link (and anchor) but no link at all is worse than both, and neither link will reduce what you already have.
Another important note: New Google search results are based on Google spider results that happened 2-4 weeks BEFORE the change was visible. If, immediately after the Yahoo listing, you noticed the Google search POSITION had dropped, then, even if a Yahoo listing COULD hurt page rank, the Googlebot would have to have spidered three weeks into the future. Google is good, but not that good.
I agree that the common denominator other people have noticed -- SERP efforts -- is almost certain to have caused the problem. You need to review the work done, not just before the Google change, but 1-3 months beforehand. And not just the Yahoo listing: look at all the links added, comparing religiously with Google's description of "artificial manipulation of search results." hidden links, hidden or spiderbait text, doorway pages, link exchange programs, etc.
Don't forget page design issues. SEARCH rank is a result of page RELEVANCE, not just page RANK. If your clients have all, for instance, switched from honest HTML to glitzy graphics or flashy Flash, you may expect their page relevance (and therefore search rank) to plummet.
Summary: I'll swear that a Yahoo listing will always do two things for a site's Google listing: improve its page rank, AND make it less likely to be tagged for link-exchange spamming. If you're flying near the edge perping your SERPs, that Yahoo listing may limit the amount of permanent damage you cause your clients. Do not drop it.
(As to whether the Yahoo listing is worth $300.00 a year to maintain, for the next year, that is the client's call and I won't even speculate. But for this year, keep what you've already paid for.)
Nobody here, except GooglyGuy, has the search engine algos in his back pocket, so when people state things as fact, just take it with a bit of caution.
The affect you refer to my be due to theming. I've noticed it on several occasions. Google takes into consideration context of links. If the context of the links is established in a narrow field, the site may be themed out of a good ranking in the SERP's. IMO, the theming may work similiar to a directory hierarchy.
For example, if my site is listed in dmoz.org/directory/subdirectory/subdirectory/subdirectory/
subdirectory/subdirectory/subdirectory/ it won't be anywhere near a similiar site listed in dmoz.org/directory/subdirectory/
In most cases, a directory listing helps, but I wouldn't bother listing if the category is too far down the ladder.
And remember, a majority of discussion in this forum, or any other webmaster forum, is mostly theory. Unfortunately Google isn't offering their algo for inspection. ;)
[edited by: Marcia at 3:38 am (utc) on Feb. 10, 2003]
[edit reason] fixed slight sideways scroll [/edit]
Nobody here, except GooglyGuy, has the search engine algos in his back pocket, so when people state things as fact, just take it with a bit of caution.Unfortunately Google isn't offering their algo for inspection. ;)
No arguing with that, and things certainly do shift from time to time.
jambad>>
When our clients websites were included in Yahoo's directory they edited the titles and descriptions drastically. This changed the score in Google's algo dropping the sites in Google and AOL listings.
jambad, are the Google and AOL listings now using the altered Yahoo titles and descriptions rather than the ones on the pages themselves?
There was a major uproar a while back, when Inktomi was using the LookSmart titles and descriptions instead of the ones on the pages themselves. That's why I'm asking.
