Forum Moderators: LifeinAsia
the hardest bit is the style/layout after that most pages seem to be template based with Cut/Paste syndrome.
Shak
But a content editor or copywriter would definitely have to factor in the amount of pages before quoting a price.
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Added: Why is this thread in HTML & Browsers? Could I suggest a move to Forum 31 (Professional Webmaster Business Issues)?
The same works for pages no? Although it is simply a cut and paste issue with a minor
page change name, should we not proceed as lawyers do and charge the same amount for every page?
How hefty the per-page time is really depends on the material you have to work with and what the client expectations are. If you are grabbing content from corresponding pages on an old site, not much time is involved. OTOH, if you are having to pull from brochures, memos, marginal scribblings, etc., churning out the additional pages can be time consuming. OCRing copy, scanning photos, editing copy, etc., all take time. SEO considerations may add time, too - you might need to break down big pages, add content to small ones, etc.
In short, I don't think there's an easy answer to your question, fashezee - every job is different.
So a flash navigation site would be x + y. An all flash site is still x + y( there is more breakdown, but this is a general example like actionscript is q and sound is r but this applies to any Flash work). I then charge b per page if I am marking them up(I charge c if it needs to be typed). So a 15 page site is x + y + 15b. All prices are constant an I have a price list. I have broken it down more than this, but this is a general example.
If a client only wants design and will mark it up themselves then I only charge x no matter how many pages. I also only make custom sites. I really don't know about templates.
Worry about charging for the layout, which is the most important and takes the most time. Cause once you get the layout done, then the other pages go very quickly. Time, not number of pages, should be the determining factor for the price when you build the other website pages. If it's pretty much cut and paste then that doesn't take too much time... Go by time and how difficult it was to do all of the pages, but definately not by number of pages.
As a web designer you've got to be reasonable. I've seen some sites that charge "$400 for a 4-page site." Do you really expect them to get that much business? No, because right away when the majority of people read that they know it is not a professional web designer.
Don't believe me? Go to my home page.
WYSIWYG editors should be dead! Well, maybe they are OK for messing around. But do yourself a favor - learn how to code by hand and in the long run you will be far better off.
I've worked with what I consider a lot of clients, some paying and some pro bono, and there is one constant; no means to estimate the creation of a website is perfect. Maybe those who create a template for the index page, and then paste copy into subsequent pages without tweaking, creating graphics, modifying a dozen pages when the client decides that they "want to go with a lighter blue" are ripping off the client, but if the designer treats each page as a separate element then as far as I can tell there is need of a constant, understandable pricing guide. Pricing by page is the way that is the fairest, and the most understood by the client.
Do you charge by the hour? If you are new to designing, then charging by the hour is ripping off the client. Do you expect them to pay for your lack of experience? Do you require an estimate? How many times do potential clients leave your site and go to a competitor's site because they don't want to e-mail you for a quote? Have you ever had a client that decides, they want a "history", and an "about us" page when they originally decided on just the "about us?" Do you renegotiate the whole contract to include the extra amount, or do you say, "that will be an extra $xx per the contract? If you believe that a per page price is "criminal" then do you say. "Okay, it's $3.00 since it will only take me 10 minutes?" Probably not. But if you do, I'd like to out-source some of my work to you. "I'd like 10 pages at $3 a piece." Or is it free because it's part of the site you bid on? It's obvious to me that if it's spelled out, that each page costs "x" then they know up front that adding an extra page will cost them "x."
When I price, I charge on a sliding downward scale starting with the index (x), pages 2-4(y), pages 5-10 (z), and 11-? (requires estimate). I also include packages that save the client even more. Each package is spelled out with the amount of scripting included and length of upkeep for their new site. I believe this is the fairest method. It compensates me for smaller sites that require the same amount of time to construct the general layout, It compensates the client who may have more pages. But most of all it is understandable, and verifiable to everyone involved.
I apologize if this post turned out to be a rant, but there are some on this board that should think before they start typing. I charge per page, and I don't consider myself "ripping off" my clients.
I dont break it down into hours because at the offset I dont know how long it will take, I dont berak it down into pages because on a lot of sites, as was pointed out the pages are based on a template. I just take everything into account, add any expenses and offer a quote.
1) Big companies that design for small business almost always charge "by the page", or rather by range of pages "ex. 2-5 pages is $500, 5-10 pages is $800" and so on. Verizon, WebSitePros.com, etc.
2) The problem with charging by the hour? The better you ARE, the LESS time it takes. So, do you start billing fewer hours because you're faster than you were at this last year? Or because you have more pre-existing code in place? Not if you want to stay in business.
We look at things from an outside perspective - "What could/should we be making in the marketplace right now?" There's two of us here, we took the total salary, added 50% for insurance/expenses, + another 10% profit, broke that down into daily/weekly/monthly. The end number will be MUCH higher than you expect. But its what you need.
We're in the middle of making REAL charts/work tables for how long things REALLY take - a huge mistake we seem to have made over and over is underestimating time - and that will help be a guide for how long new projects might take.
Very briefly, as I've mentioned before in other forums we've come to realize that 60% of our time is actually in finding and dealing with clients - only 40% "billable work". So you have to take that into account as well.
The prospective client seldom understands the web well enough to know what they really need or even what their business goals are -- and if they don't know, we can't guess. So we ask for a consultation fee upfront to define the project's scope and do some initial market research and a feasibility study. And this we usually do for an hourly rate, minimum payment up front.
The end result gives a solid and reality-based definition to the project's scope which we can then use to generate a package price and contract proposal. It also results in a well educated client who can be a strong collaborator in developing a website that will really do them some good.
This initial consulting period is also something like the period of courtship before the wedding. We both learn what it is like to work with the other party, and we can both walk away before the final contract, if we discover we have a bad fit.
Even if we don't get a final contract, we still have been paid for our up-front time and the prospective client now has a formal study in hand. That study includes keyword research and the beginnings of an Information Architecture. So they've got some real value that they can take to any developer they choose.
By the way, so far not one prospect has walked away after the initial consulting period, except one case where we foolishly did the research for free, trying to land a big project.
[hbfsolutions.com...]
I *love* this plan of yours - so much so that I introduced this just today to a potential new client. This first hour-long meeting was free, just me listening and trying to understand the business and the goals involved. Then I set a date for a second, in-depth meeting in two weeks, both of us will attend, we'll ask questions, present research, then we'll go away and build a wireframe and work up a potential design or some kind of sketch...I think? And THEN we'll present that package...
I didn't mention price at all - and I even mentioned that doing the research for the next meeting I'd be "on the clock" - although when asked about the hourly rate, I dodged and said we'd come up with a flat rate once we looked this over.
Ted, what are your thoughts about making a set rate for this consultation? People haven't balked at all when you mentioned hourly rates? I ask because we've found that, crazy enough, if I say something will cost $5,000 it's easier to accept than if I say "it will be $100 an hour, probably 50 hours work" (or whatever rate).
I have different hourly rates for consultation, design and maintanence. When I first started designing my speed wasn't up to par so I charged less. As I get quicker I up the hourly price.
I don't charge consulting fee's up front but this is included in the web design quote as "consultation". They never ask questions because it's usually small anyways.
I find if ANYTHING that a per page rate sells me short.
And how many times have you done all this and not got the job?
What size of project are you talking about? We're usually looking at things over 40 pages...custom design, etc.
[edited by: heini at 9:51 pm (utc) on April 25, 2003]
[edit reason] url removed per TOS / thanks! [/edit]
Pixel, how many hours does it take you to determine the site plan/flow chart, do research on the firm, etc. How many meetings do you have with them first?
I usually set an initial meeting to discuss target market, company goals and objectives (regarding themselves and the website), and to get an understanding of their industry or niche. I ask them about their competitors and a one or two line sentence summarizing the company. This meeting usually last an hour or two if we are efficient. If I'm feeling confident I will charge them for this meeting. If I want to really get the business I will do this for free.
I submit a "consultation contract" for web design work and an estimate of the project size/scope with a cost. Noting this is an estimate and that it will be finalized after the next meeting with more accurate numbers. They must pay a percentage of my consultation fee upfront (not any part of the estimate of the designing portion) and then pay for the rest upon completion. If they choose to accept this I go forward with this next step.
After the meeting I usually do four-six hours or so of research. Checking out competitors, learning about the industry, finding keywords, culture of the people/product (if necess.), find image sources if I don't have them readily available, and developing an information architecture.
I'm paid the rest of the "consultation contract" and hand them my studies. At this time we discuss the website in further detail. I receive all of the information that will be need to complete the project at this time. If they can't give it to me upfront I kindly remind them that it will take me more time to orchestrate this if we do it by piece and therefore their cost will increase. I write a formal contract proposal for the site and send it to them. I work as soon as I receive the signed copy.
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What about the actual design itself - do you show them rough sketches, etc?
I give them a couple different specs with minor modifications along with accompanying sub-pages. If there are additional designs and considerations that require special attention I also will develop something for those.
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And how many times have you done all this and not got the job?
I've never had a problem. If I don't get the job thats fine - I still got paid for the research.
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What size of project are you talking about? We're usually looking at things over 40 pages...custom design, etc.
This should work for any project. Obivously the size will increase/decrease the research time and my quote/proposal.
Hope this helps.
-OMP
