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I have put in an ENOURMOUS amount of effort to build up my business over the last 2 years and have done everything in my power not to offend the google gods in anyway by following all the basic do's and don'ts that they suggest on their website.
I operate ONE website with enourmous amounts of content, have a good internal linking structure and a decent on-topic reciprocal linking program.
I have for the last year remained on either page one or two for many important keyword searches(occasionally slipping down to page 3 or 4), which is quite acceptable.
BUT BEING BLOWN FROM MANY NUMBER ONE POSITIONS TO NOWHERE TO BE FOUND IS SIMPLY UNBELIEVABLE AND UNFAIR.
My business supports over 20 familes around the world and now I really dont know what to tell them now - cos I just dont know anymore!
I am sure that I am just one example of millions in the same position.
How in the world can Google be so cruel?
You may say dont ONLY RELY on google for ALL your traffic and my answer to that is I DONT! I held top ten positions in Altavista, Inktomi and other engines but still 90% of traffic came from Google!
You may also say try PAID ADVERTISING!
Well I am afraid that just aint an option. How does a little guy like myself compete with the giants that are quite obviously throwing money down the drain.
Paying $4 per click when you need 100 clicks for a sale and you only average $20 profit per sale` is LUDICROUS!
Doesnt Google get it!
They need us as much as we need them!
They want quality sites - we build them - but how can they expect us to run businesses where we can be destroyed OVERNIGHT!
As I said before going from page 1 to page 2 or even page 3 is quite acceptable but going from number one positions to page 10 and beyond is extreme and UNJUST! especially where no spam tactics have been employed!
Wishing you all the best of luck with the next UPDATE!
it's Good but all it takes is one algo change and bang site drops 3/5 of the traffic and it's very hard to compensate for that, short of dumping lots of ad dollars that perhaps a startup company just does not have.
Can someone please explain precisely what algo change occurred, the new formula, as well as the precise reference that makes this so.
Google is... thus far, by far the best search engine going and what's more it's free advertising for those few who take the time to categorize, analysis, and summarize with real evidence and not mere spectulation, because of personal SERP's going up or down.
Serp's changes don't mean squat without taking into consideration a 100 variables for your site and the same 100 variables for every other site (sorry -- you really can't do this in but a few minutes).
A preponderance of your new position, a glimpse at a few sites above you, their "mainpages", "source code" and PageRank and we naturally assume that "Google has changed its algo". We didn't do anything, so it "MUST BE THEM". More likely though its just pure complacency, on our parts, "boy am I happy - I'm at the top".
I also tend to believe that if this so-called "GOOGLE RISK" is so biased to you, maybe it's best to advertise strictly off-line and see just how fair, how "unrisky" that is for a change.
I really can't believe Google would go so far and be so foolish to make a change (in their algo) to the detriment of Google users. Let's not forget this is where their results are. In saying that - if your not near the top anymore there is really only 2 possible reasons:
1. Google prefers spam sites as opposed to quality sites (in this case, your markets soon realize and finding nothing but garbage will move to a more quality search enigne), or
2. You were not as good as you thought you were (in this case, you'd better start doing lots homework and daily, or hire someone if you don't have the time).
But of course... Google changes their algo every update because someone dropped... (tunnel vision I think).
While on that subject... I contend that marketing, promotion, and sales potential costs alot (regardless of the medium) it isn't "free" even though Google may not charge a fee to list.
You either pay by "spending your quality time" -- collecting evidence, analysing that evidence, developing knowledge, skill and wisdom to appreciate all the unknown variables so that you can make informed risk assessments and implement on a judgement call yourself, or
Pay someone else to do this for you, making them accountable.
If you're not prepare to do either, this isn't the medium for you, it's not Google's shortcomings, but yours and as chiyo said, (sorry thiefware he is right IMHO).
Reality bites, but -- I would tend to believe that you take customer care, service and support seriously. Business is "this" but with no concern for customer migration you really don't know your own customers, so how can you look after them.
If I seem a tad harsh, this is not my intention. Personally - I am quick to blame myself, and slow to blame others -- including Google.
There are many here who sit on their high horse and smugly preach diversification. If you can do that, well lucky/clever you.
Well the fact is, not all of us can diversify. Our particular product is one of a kind and there is no similar product with marketing overlap which could possibly produce 5% of revenues/searches of the main product. We have added what we can to our offerings, but still, I would say 98% of revenues are from our core product.
We also cannot additionally target less competitive key phrases, because we already rank top for those too.
Finally, we should look for other sources of customers, right? Well, we do that already and still 95% of customers come from the internet, despite the fact that we spend thousands monthly on an in-house marketing person and magazine/brochure advertising.
Pay per click? Yep, we do that too. Shame it's only 10% of our traffic even though we bid to be in the top 3 on every keyword combination.
"Shouldn't have got yourselves into that position", you cry. Well, everyone is a General after the war. It just happened through the slow but steady rise of Google. Who wouldn't take big wads of cash if it just landed on your table? You just pray it keeps coming.
I'm not asking anyone here to rescue us. I'm just saying that you should think before you wade in and pour scorn on other peoples' business models. Not all businesses are the same, believe me. I run 2 and one of them does not need the internet at all. It has a page, but it's not even listed in Google, and I don't really care.
Some of us run hobby sites which make money on the side or academic sites which don't rely on SE traffic. Some of us on the other hand would die if we were out of Google for a single month.
Show a little sensitivity to other people.
fathom said:When I made that comment, it was a comment in general--not necessarily tied to google at all. I know it's not really googles responsibility. I just thought the comment was very unkind in general and reflects the coldness of some people. When people display unfeeling attitudes or get very rude, it gets the hair on my arms if you know what I mean.
and as chiyo said, (sorry thiefware he is right IMHO).
I don't have a problem with Google cleaning up spam or keeping out the really trashy sites or outright illegal stuff. Their size still makes me nervous because when anyone has that much reach, they affect too many good people and their sites too when the algo changes. This is especially evident when on-topic sites for the various searches get buried after being on top rank for important keywords.
And this comment
One day, the internet marketing will be just like one big newspaper. You'll have to buy a spot on every web site just to get seen. In short, the big companies and smart one's will win and choke out the small fries. The adage the rich get richer and poor get poorer seems to hold true. It's one greedy world we live in and cares not who gets hurt....was also one of those general comments NOT targetted at google but to those people who fit the description. (hmmm, I guess I can't edit my post above to reflect what I said here-oh well)
[edited by: thiefware at 9:51 am (utc) on Oct. 27, 2002]
Firstly, I think they are reacting to what seem to be pleas for some form of government/peer intervention to regulate Google which have a large degree of self-interest in them ("keep the rankings as they were so I stay on the first page" or "change the rankings so my spammy competition disappears").
The suggestions that many people have made in this thread may go some way towards relieving the frustrations of other posters, if they follow the advice.
As far as your situation goes, I am glad to hear of your success. But, without any scorn at all, if your business relies almost completely on an external source that you cannot influence and that is liable to change its view of your product without any notice, then that surely cannot be a long term sustainable business model?
Agreed. We should start showing a little sensitivity towards each other right here. And along with sensitivity some sensibility.
We are discussing here mostly among people making a living online. It's a board for web pros. If we can't openly discuss sense and risks of business strategies, where else then?
Truth is, what some people in this thread are saying about relying on Google rankings solely for a business model is obviously 100% on target.
Personally I think it can't be said often enough.
It's not people being insensitive, it's the truth of online business that's harsh and can be cruel.
Many people here have lived through this before, and they learned from that. Sharing that experience and trying to warn people not to make the same mistake of relying on three or four advertizing slots (Google serps) is not insensitive, it's actually nothing but helpful.
fathom said:
and as chiyo said, (sorry thiefware he is right IMHO).
What part is right? this?...
...based on SYMPTOMS rather than CAUSES, they deserve to fail.They deserve to fail? NO! I definitely disagree with that attitude--It Stinks. No one deserves to be ruined unless they are doing some nasty things themselves.
I would not wish ruin on Google either--just wish that there were more alternatives roughly equal to Google so that when they do upset the carts, people have other carts to find themselves in. So far there is the FAST search engine but they don't seem to have nearly the reach of GG (that is the other engine that boasts 2+ billion pages, right?).
That, and exactly that was, what Chyio was referring to, and it was an example brought up by somebody else..
So lets stop getting at each other and discuss business strategies instead.
[edited by: heini at 11:47 am (utc) on Oct. 27, 2002]
I base any web promotion strategy on the basis of using traffic sources I know are reasonably reliable - targetting vortals, industry specific directories and portals, using paid inclusion and/or placement (where cost effective). This is the method by which you can build reasonably solid foundations for focussed traffic. Sites I do, start generating significant traffic long before they get listed in Google. It also (as a side effect) will probably get you decent listings in Google, but I always emphasise that this should be viewed as a bonus and not to be relied on. Google and Google based sites should (IMHO) provide no more than 50% of your traffic - all things being equal. Base a business around the other 50% and you can sleep easier and consistently smile when Google fortunes smile upon you without being wiped out when they don't.
You can control your lives, Google can sometimes enhance them :)
I asked the Google rep while he tucked into his Chicken and chips (fries) at the Conference about the poor response (I.E, none!) to user e-mails and he agreed that Google does need to look at that area and "would love to help more" (He did, by the way, know who GoogleGuy was but he just grinned when I asked who it was...hehe)
If they can invest some money into that side by offering some sort of support level for users then I do believe many people's fears will be alleviated.
I just think it's wrong when someone comes to this board wearing his heart on his sleeve and gets people telling him he deserved it because he is a crappy businessman. That's what I mean about sensitivity.
I also disagree with some of your points. For example, hiring people based on Google SERPs. This guy may ave hired people when his SERPs were good on many SEs. He has been marginalised by Google's rise. He's not a bad businessman. 2 years ago his business model probably looked very safe. I have a non-internet based business where the employee life cycle can be only months. You just need to tell the employees when they start what the score is.
I guess we could all make ourselves safe by reducing our capacity. I could reduce my monthly output and turn customers away. This would cut my costs and protect me in a Google downturn, but I would be kicking myself if I manage to stay top (sly) dog in the SERPs for the coming year. I would be throwing away pot loads of money.
So, even more true than in the efficient market hypothesis and portfolio theory, return really is proportional to risk in the internet world. You really can choose your point on the risk curve.
I guess the key is education. Anyone ready to start an SEO business school?
Nobody can realistically expect Google to remain constant in their ranking methods, their inclusion policy, the features and channels and partners they might add or their business model in general.
Consistency in serps is from an SE POV absolutely undesirable!
It's fundamental for anybody in this business to be fully aware of this! Those are the facts we have to build our business on.
Personally I see two ways of taking this into account.
One way is what some people here described and may be coined as diversification. Building a business so that it's sustainable without Google traffic, and take Google traffic as an added value.
Another way is to gamble. Go for Google's free lunch as good as you can, eat all you can while it lasts. But then, when you lose your rankings for some reason, shrug and build anew.
Realistically I don't see any alternatives.
We could listen to Bob Dylan music and say prayers.
Man has strived to understand his universe, his reason for being...the great unknown and unknowable. Where everything came from, and how it came. The SUPREME MYSTERY!
Google has entered into our lives as a neato cult in it's early days...to an all consuming force today. You live or die at Google's whim.
Forgive me Google, for I have sinned!
All of those other sources of free traffic, save Inktomi, have become non-entities leaving Google to dominate the field out of all proportion. I didn't do anything to bring about an unwanted dependence on Google. It just happened that way like it did with so many others. Because I have had good listings in Inktomi, I still get a lot of MSN traffic, so I'm not wholly dependent on Google. But the last update did bring about a 35% drop in traffic and a concomitant dip in income.
My views are only one of many here. And i fully accept and enjoy the discussion we have here including comments totally opposed to mine, and even john316's humorous digs at me. They make my day...
What im trying to help in a small way (and my strategies may be right or wrong) is to make it so we dont have to read painful stories like nervous-seo. It does upset me to see anybodies business go down the drain. I dont want to read those posts. One way to avoid them is to have discussion here on how we can avoid those problems and to at least try to help people like nervous seo. Business, off-line or on-line is often cold hearted - big companies dominate, some gang up against you. Its just that in the small owner internet business I think we are seeing a lot of owners who need a bit more business training or even a business partner. I see an enormous amount of internet expertise around here, but less business strategy experience. I think we need to up our business nous to compete with the big boys.
Unlike 6 years ago, it isnt a cottage industry anymore. It is cut-throat. Helping each other understand the way Search engines work and predicting the future brings us all up a notch or two to be able to compete effectively in a hard realistic world.
Really how useful is complaining about how big google is and commisserating with each other compared to suggesting ideas (right or wrong) and debating honestly on what can help? This is a professional forum, not a pub full of people drowing their sorrows.
(And no im NOT finishing off with a Bob Dylan quote this time john - nor have I noticed my tag team member joining in here yet :))
Oh ok..maybe just a little one
There must be some way out of here, said the joker to the thief,
There's too much confusion, I can't get no relief.
Businessmen, they drink my wine, plowmen dig my earth,
None of them along the line know what any of it is worth.
Outside in the distance a wildcat did growl, Two riders were approaching, the wind began to howl...
[edited by: chiyo at 2:39 pm (utc) on Oct. 27, 2002]
I was reading about how so many people had lost rankings and it occured to me that that usually means others moved UP.
I thought I'd post from the 'other side' of things. And that is: that even a sight moving UP may not be good, if it's a radical change in algo. Especially if the website hasn't been touched by anyone in years.
It wouldn't take much-maybe 10 to 20% increase in sales and they may respond to this increase in a way I described. (They might not-again, it was fictional).
The point I was making is this: Zero-sum game and radical changes aren't good for either end of the scale. Those moving down AND those moving UP.
I am inagreement with many of the posts here. I just thought a different perspective would help.
And that is that going from #3 to #103 may be as bad as going from #103 to say..#13 or even worse, #3.
However, I hold my breath during every update and breathe a great sigh of relief when I know my business is alive and well for another month or so.
That being said, I have done a few things to insure that should doomsday arrive, and my site falls from grace, I will at least be able to keep my head above water.
1) At great expense and great risk, I took an office in a very high traffic area where folks who buy my type of products tend to come in droves.
2) I put away 4% of my earnings each month just in case I have to start buying Adwords or (heaven forbid) ... print advertising. (So far, I've been lucky).
3) I just bought three new URL's and am expanding into other related areas of the business in an attempt to capture more of the pie.
4) I have purposely stayed as small as possible to keep my overheads down.
All it takes is one simple mistake such as leaving a test page up during a crawl which has no links to it but is on the server and Google sees it as an doorway page ... or testing a duplicate page and forgetting to take it down ... both of which I have done and which got me penalized for a month. My sloppy ways have cost me dearly both times, but it is futile to complain because I was ultimately responsible. Not Google.
I am not saying that you may have made one of these sloppy mistakes, but it is certainly worth checking your whole site (on the server side) to make sure that is not the case.
Best of luck to you ... there but for the grace of God go many of us! Keep your chin up, what the others are saying about it being a good experience when all is said and done is absolutely true and you won't be as nervous anymore! :)
I just get so tired of seeing people get cut up in various forums and no one seems to think it's wrong or something. I get to a point when the next time I see a post like that or a flame, I speak my mind on it. A percentage of the posters in forums have this idea that they can be (what they call) brutally honest. What it amounts to is just being rude. I suppose you are not really like that after reading your latest post. I've run across bone heads in the past that post similar to that other post and that's how they post all the time. I've got short tolerance for those types.
Anyway, thanks for clarifying things. OK, back to the GG issue... :)
Just a quick word with those who are thinking of taking the sponsored link if your site gets dropped. Sometimes the inventory is sold out for the whole year in advance. I made enquiries just in case the feared by all day came, but it seems that I would have to be content with add words, which I do already.
It's nasty out there!
One way are hedging our business is go to other locations and sell widgets there. If one location takes a dive then we always will have the other one as back up.
Of course this all depends on how much cash and drive you have. For the small timer you probably could not be bothered, for the person who has his nads on the google chopping block it is worth considering.
You got on to the first page with your widgets, you can now replicate that elsewhere or with a different product.
There are many here who sit on their high horse and smugly preach diversification. If you can do that, well lucky/clever you.Well the fact is, not all of us can diversify. Our particular product is one of a kind and there is no similar product with marketing overlap which could possibly produce 5% of revenues/searches of the main product. We have added what we can to our offerings, but still, I would say 98% of revenues are from our core product.
Sly, (sorry to abbreviate, but the three initials S. O. and D seemed too rude :) ) there are many, many ways to diversify. You can develop new products with your existing team. You can adapt existing products for new markets, and you can aquire or build new companies/ development teams.
Okay, so within your core business you've already done all the diversification you can see, and are staying on top of this part of the game. You leverage your existing customer base to maximise repeat custom. You have world-class CRM in place to create viral marketing based on extreme customer satisfaction.
Now what about diversifying your business, by acquiring or building businesses that target entire new markets.
Who wouldn't take big wads of cash if it just landed on your table? You just pray it keeps coming.
When business is good, don't just spend the money on good living, but look for future investments, even outside of your own business. The secret of getting into a position of not having all your eggs in one basket is not just to make more baskets - you're allowed to buy new baskets too. Hell, invest in a basket-weaving company. :)
There is always the opportunity to do more. To develop just one further refinement. To develop new complimentary products. To target products to new markets. To increase customer satisfaction. To gain a little more market share. To improve viral marketing. To invest in entire new businesses (related or not).
This is not said in a dismissive way. It's just the truth. If we ever think we have nothing more we can do, then we're no longer evolving, and ripe for a competitor to show exactly how much further the envelope can be pushed.
Ammon Johns
You can call me SOD if you like. I won't be offended :)
Thanks for your post. You have a lot of good points, and of course we try to do most of those (though it's difficult not to spend the money when the wife is around :))
I just wanted to explain how difficult it can be to diversify. Whilst Google can delist you in a month, it can take months to set up a major new activity. We are trying. It actually means that we have to become international, which we have done. But you can imagine the energy that takes. New offices, new staff. New partners.
Of course if you are diversifying by buiding another website, that can be done more quickly, but even that is 10 times harder now that you need all those incoming links.
I can imagine that someone with reasons why they cannot leave home to start a new office would just have to sit back and cross their fingers. We shouldn't judge them. They have their reasons.
I think its awesome that pr5 sites outrank pr7 sites, don't you? Who cares how popular the rest of the world thinks your site is. I think its awesome that the sites up top are ranking for words that they have nothing to do with. It makes searching much more exciting, because you get to have to click more adwords links since the stuff on the left has a 50/50 chance of being what you are looking for.
All sarcasm aside. I hope someone with a brain somewhere is reading this and thinking about how they can do a better job than google.
To this person: If you can beat google's results, the web will notice and within 1 year you can begin to remove googles market share, just as google has done to everyone else in the world. If you build it better and cheaper, Yahoo, Aol, netscape, compuserve, everyone will switch to you when their contracts with Google are up. Then you can ride on an Internet monopoly of your own, and create your own adwords program making more money than overture.
IT IS ALL ABOUT MONEY, NOT SEARCH RELEVANCE. NOT CARING ABOUT WEBMASTERS. Ever try to call google? It is a real joke.
All hail the iron fist of Google. Long live Google.
P.S. To all of you webmasters that google has said had great sites for keeping them high in the serps for years, and now you are toast. I feel for you.
Here we all are, discussing the awesome power of Google. We all know the power it has, it's massive and unsurpassed dominance as the very core of search (with search being the second most commonly performed online activity, right after using email).
Google are a goliath. They are the first port of call for millions and millions of people all over the world. As discussed here, they are the fastest route to our products for well over half of all of our customers.
Google don't rely on a high google listing.
Google represent the dominance of quality over advertising. In the height of the SE wars, when Yahoo, Excite, Lycos and others were spending millions on advertising, Google instead spent all its money on providing better results. How many google customers come to them from search referrals? Google itself is the proof that search positions and advertising budgets are not the only way.
Viral marketing out-performs even SEO. This is where your customers are so blown away by your service that they can't help but tell others about it. Glowing referrals from real people.
SEO is a kick-start. For most companies, SEO should serve to introduce your products or services to the market. After a year, your repeat custom, people who've bookmarked your site, your solid reputation, and the fact that people speak of your company often and highly should out-perform your search referrals.
If that isn't happening, if after 2 years in business you are still getting more visitors with a Google referral than are arriving from bookmarks, friends passing a link, or simply by typing your url into their browser, then you should look very hard at what you could be doing better. Customer relations and satisfaction.
If you take nothing else away from this discussion with you, at least take that away to think about.
We all know the game we play
It's risky and it's exciting but you gotta take the risk into account.
Nick
If that isn't happening, if after 2 years in business you are still getting more visitors with a Google referral than are arriving from bookmarks, friends passing a link, or simply by typing your url into their browser, then you should look very hard at what you could be doing better.
Still with this "if you're unable to do your biz, go away" issue.
A little bit, how may I say.. not so helpful for i.e. nervous_seo.
Black_Knight, I think many posters here should realize that there are various, very different, business models/types.
Your statement is 100% true and right for a part of them, but unrealistic for another.
That said, all the "relying on a thing you don't have control at all is a risk" are correct & right.
But I think we're here to give/get some advice/help, not to say "get a real job -- you're unable -- etc".
Too much simple, dont'you?
And, BTW, what is the goal of this forum?
Spread around "you're OK -- you're not OK", or maybe give useful info/suggestion each other?
[Excuse me for roughness]
cminblues
This place is pretty friendly, let's keep it that way ;)
Nick
A suggestion: Why not call it quits on this one and address some specific issues in seperate threads?
I agree. :)
[Black_Knight, excuse 1 more time for the roughness of my previous post,
but sometimes I feel a bit sympathetic with the 'unables' he.. :) :) :)]
cminblues
I'm not overly sure why people have taken offense, as posters have been polite, helpful and honest (Give me honest over patronizing-molly-coddling any day). You can dress this up any way you like, but the fact is a business model that relies on Google SERPs is a risky business model. That is the truth. No amount of dressing it up will
change the fact. I suspect those that don't want to hear it, really don't want to hear it in any shape or form.
And the solution? What Black_Knight said. He's given you the answer.
