Google's 2 indexes & you

Google is alternating between 2 indexes, every 3 days.

[Namaste]

I am sure you all are seeing this too, but every two-three days the index changes and if a page drops, it drops to the same position it was 3 days back.

For example, my result for Buy Widgets is alternating between position 6 and position 11. This has been happening for 2 weeks.

To me, this shows that Google is publishing 2 indexes and is alternating between the two.

What is the reason for this?

Theory 1: SEO Neutralisation. Since Jan, we have seen steps towards this. Obvious step being reciprocal links neutralized. Why would Google want to do this? "It's the money stupid", Less predictable results means more spend on Google Adwords by webmasters!

Theory 2: Continuous Update. Inorder to publish a new index and allow it to settle across all data centers 3 days is required. So, DeepFreshBot scours the depths of the web continously and a new index is published every three days. GoogleGuy allows the new index to settle and then pushes the red botton,making live the new index. (Best way to test this is to make title tag modifications to deep pages and see if they appear with the new index).

Theory 3: Both. How do you kill two birds with one red button? Simple, you undertake 2 above, but use two seperate algos, one for each index(theory 1). Thus, index A is on for 3 days, meanwhile index B(with different algo) is being prepared and published. Then Index B goes live and index A goes in for updation, and so on and on. To make it greater fun, every now and then GG inserts experimental algo C for 3 days.

Enjoy!

[amazed]

great find claus, thanks.

[zafile]

claus, thank you for the additional facts. It's nice to follow concrete events to discern facts from fiction or theories.

Google and representatives obtained the following patents:

February 25, 2003 - Patent: Ranking search results by reranking the results based on local inter-connectivity

Abstract: "A search engine for searching a corpus improves the relevancy of the results by refining a standard relevancy score based on the interconnectivity of the initially returned set of documents. The search engine obtains an initial set of relevant documents by matching a user's search terms to an index of a corpus. A re-ranking component in the search engine then refines the initially returned document rankings so that documents that are frequently cited in the initial set of relevant documents are preferred over documents that are less frequently cited within the initial set.

March 4, 2003 - Patent: Methods and apparatus for using a modified index to provide search results in response to an ambiguous search query

Abstract: "A system allows a user to submit an ambiguous search query and to receive potentially disambiguated search results. In one implementation, a search engine's conventional alphanumeric index is translated into a second index that is ambiguated in the same manner as which the user's input is ambiguated. The user's ambiguous search query is compared to this ambiguated index, and the corresponding documents are provided to the user as search results."

[edited by: zafile at 8:43 pm (utc) on July 7, 2003]

[JonB]

i dont know what is idea between alternating but from searchers point of view nothing is more irritating(except poor results) that spending 30 minutes on searching something you found on first search "yesterday" only to find out (or give up not finding out) that site isnt even in "new" index..

[too much information]

Maybe it's much more simple than having two indices, maybe what we are seeing when the listings show two records for the same page is the new data being inserted into the live data, then later the old listings being removed causing pages to "jump" in rank.

I just did a search for one of my terms only to find that almost every listing appeared twice one after the other where they didn't do this earlier in the morning. I'll bet that if I counted each double listing as one and visited later today the pages would probably appear in the same order.

Maybe Google is testing a new live update algo as well as a new page rank algo.

[MyWifeSays]

The feb. 25th one sounds very much like the one Ask/Teoma uses.

[zafile]

"Maybe Google is testing a new live update algo as well as a new page rank algo."

Regardless of the new systems being implemented by Google, I just hope the missing index pages are restored soon.

I'm using the date of May 27 2003 to calm my anxiety. [news.com.com...]

I assume the task of making Google return clean results isn't easy and fast. Mixing old and compliant ingredients with new ones must be challenging.

[rfgdxm1]

Check out www-cw at the moment. Looks like some major changes there. Has it been 3 days?

[zafile]

Yes, I see my index in no. 16. The last time I saw it on the top 10 was on July 3rd. We'll see how long it lasts ...

[steveb]

-cw is the Google of old, went out and found stuff, and sensibly ranks it. It's like they are in the 'plex giggling: "hehe, we had the good stuff here all the time."

[Tropical Island]

Something is going on. www is different from www2 & www3 for the first time in a few days and my index page is back for the main terms and on the first page of some of the data centers. I know it won't stick but at least there is hope that they will eventually straighten this out.

This constant change is driving me crazy - not from a revenue view point - we are well covered with AdWords. It would just be nice to see all the work that I've put into the content of this site pay off. Today I even deleted a few keywords in the body text of the home page in fear of the over-optimization bug. I don't think that was it (didn't have them in all that many times) however deleting a few of them can't hurt.

>edit< Just checked again and now www is showing the results from the other updated data centers. Woooo... Hold on...here comes another loop!

[GrinninGordon]

Yes, seems like Google likes to dance every day or two now.

But I still think the majority is recouping data loss from February, March, April time. I am seeing sites which were active on link exchange in Feb reappearing better on www2. Sites that were active in March making alittle progress now.

[donferguson]

I am never going to sleep again, as I work nights when I get home check my sites with google www, 2, 3 and all 9 data basees.
All is fine sites have held postion in top 10 so of to bed I go happy that I have been spared this day by google.
A quick nap and 4hrs later when I rise check again and one site has disappeared from all www, 2,3 and 9 data bases others have droped
I take my medication and read webmaster world as I always do and see that sites should return in a couple of days.
So off to work I go and come home today and turn on the compter and check again (I tell me wife this is relaxation (SMILE))and low and behold results are image of pre june 15.
so here iam writing this posted after taking double my medication to calm me down thinking the guys at google are have fun with all of us.

Luckly the ranking of my sites doesnt generate my wage or I would really would be taking medication.
Great fourm but think I will take up needle craft LOL

[sachac]

Back to #3 for my main keyword, after five days at #14. This "update" is somewhat different and are better qality results. I am seeing more of the old pre-Dominique results, while the spammy sites that had edged up have slipped, though not into oblivion where they deserve to be. Backlinks remain the same but I suspect that when they are added, these spammy sites that have only a very few links, will drop even further. I really am beginning to see a light at the end of the tunnel.

[mrguy]

This time, it took 6 days for the second set to appear for me.

I noticed one other site I watch that has been gone (not even in and out, but gone) came back tonight in a great spot.

Let's see how long this one lasts!

[annej]

-cw data is spreading to other centers. I finally got into the top 10 on my prized key word! Well it's #10. It sat at #11 for some time until Dominic came along then it sunk. Interesting, perhaps the final results of Esmerelda won't be too far from the pre-Dominic days. Then again tomorrow it may plunge down to the 4th page again.

[rfgdxm1]

>-cw is the Google of old, went out and found stuff, and sensibly ranks it. It's like they are in the 'plex giggling: "hehe, we had the good stuff here all the time."

My guess is that somebody at the plex screwed up, and pushed the wrong button that gave good SERPs. No doubt he has been sacked, and these won't last long. :(

[Westmont]

It seems the more popular the keyword, the bigger the dance (ever-dance?). Widgets bounces all over, blue widgets a little less, and heavy blue widgets a little. I realize the less popular the keyword, the less competition, but there seems to be some sort of pattern. Like one of G's algo's takes into account the number of searches over some time frame, and then applies some sort of formula on a sliding scale. For what purpose? I am clueless.

I cannot believe they are targetting SEO's just for the sake of messing with them. GG's very presence and participation in this forum indicates they are trying to understand (if not embrace) and use (mold) this valuable resource. There are too many other ways to catch the "cheaters".

[Namaste]

1. it's taken 6 days. Well, if you don't count the holidays, it's taken 3 working days this time.

2. There is no freshness. All data is the same as the previous cycle. Not even level 1 and level 2 pages are fresh.

3. It looks like they are only using two different algos and not publishing an updated index.

4. But could it be that they are focusing on streamlining their existing index? The major keyword that was mentioned earlier at 168,000,000 results, has now dropped to 156,000,000 ... G's shedding weight fast

[mfishy]

<<It seems the more popular the keyword, the bigger the dance (ever-dance?).>>

I think you are correct.

On a few highly competetive terms, the SERPS bounce around every single day- and not just a little. On 2 word phrases, there is still constant flux, but much less.

[steveb]

What do you mean by "no freshness"? Pages are showing that were cached 48 hours ago.

[egomaniac]

I too have been noticing that the SERPS are changing within the day. Sometimes from minute to minute. My site typically alternates between #3 or #4 and #15-20. The total # of results tends to change too. I've noticed this for a couple of weeks now.

I too think that there are two algo's being used here.

I wonder if we are still within GoogleGuys vague timeframe of more than weeks but less than months. We could split hairs and argue over what that means, but the fact remains that he gave us a vague timeframe. We may still be in a "transition" period.

I've also been thinking that this alternation of results maybe Google's way of making sure the SERPS look "fresh" to the average user.

[Bio4ce]

Anytime I think of the term Google Dance, I suddenly have an image of Elaine from Seinfeld getting her grove on. It's painfull to watch.

[beggers]

Actually, this seemingly random changing of results is part of an international gesture of hospitality by Google. Instead of giving us Americans a bunch of boring results in English, Google now includes a number of sites that are entirely in Chinese, Japanese or Russian. This helps foreign trade and introduces Americans to languages and cultures that we wouldn't otherwise be exposed to. Speaking for all Americans, I want to thank them and say that this brilliant diplomatic strategy is greatly appeciated by all of us.

That's why it doesn't bother me in the least that my rankings are frequently replaced by all-Chinese sites. It's for the good of all. World peace.

hahahahahaha

[ircgeeks]

google appears to be finally fixed...
This is the least spammy index’s I have seen in six month’s

YES! google, you got it right!

[willybfriendly]

I just about fell out of my chair when a few moments ago I discovered myself at #1 for my most productive phrase, #11 for my best single word term and #2 for my best 2 word phrase.

I have been completely missing from the SERPS for the past two weeks.

Most of these are shoing my index page to boot! I made minor changes to the index about 5 days ago, lowering keyword density and targeting more 2-3 word terms. The new page shows in the cache.

These changes have taken place in the past 12 hours. Guess we'll see where we are in the morning.

WBF

[Napoleon]

Checking my data bank, as at this moment in time, Google is as complete as its been since this fiasco started.... and yes, it looks VERY much better for it.

It's anyone's guess whether it will hold or not.

[GrinninGordon]

Yes, I saw these (my area) results on www2 a few hours ago, and now they are on www (and yes, I am doing better). I don't look at individual data centers as other people do, as you don't know where they each are with things. Someone was on about checking one of these earlier, as it was dancing. I looked, and I thought "I hope www2 is better" and it was.

But the dance is still going on. And it still looks like my well stated theory that Feb to April's data had to be sacrificed (for a later catch up) in order to test and then impliment the latest main algo, is still good. I still see areas that have not settled so much as others. And sites I am sure will rank high, have gone way down again (as happened with other search term, non related sites of mine which are now back high on www).

Missing data. Google playing catch up. Wish bookies would have taken bets on it.

[Trodda]

Finally looks like my backlinks have been counted. First position change I have seen in 3 months, and its all good. Lets hope it sticks.

[Namaste]

Pages are showing that were cached 48 hours ago.

This happened a few minutes after I posted. But this is only for level 1 and level 2 pages. No deep pages are "fresh". So, I don't know what GG means about DeepFreshBot.

However, as many other memebers are reporting 1st time inclusion, this could be a new index.

Also, now that major keyword is upto 173,000,0000!

All very confusing.

But, I agree, this is the cleanest index so far.

[edited by: Namaste at 7:59 am (utc) on July 8, 2003]

[my3cents]

The missing index pages seem to be mostly straightened out (at least the ones I have been analyzing) but I still see a couple places where it is listing the same page twice with two different urls, the difference is, it is closer to it's normal position and not in the 100's.

Example:

three word term:

result 4:

My Previously: Missing Main Page
blahblahblah blah blah blahvlah
www.mysite.com
_____ My Previously: Missing Main Page
_____ blahblahblah blah blah blahvlah
_____ www.mysite.com/index.shtml

same exact page being listed twice! Before it only listed the www.mysite.com/index.shtml several pages down, then once every few days it would show the www.domain.com in it's normal position. This is a little strange, surely there is work still to be done, but this is an improvement for sure.

Also, I am seeing duplicate sites/doorways/spam starting to slide down to page 3 and 4 for most terms. And unlike the last cycle of decent serps, these have no fresh tags this time.

I doubt we're at the end of the road yet, but this is a welcome sight.

[edited by: my3cents at 7:57 am (utc) on July 8, 2003]