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Maybe you believe that bug problems are exclusive to IE or maybe you believe that other browsers have potentially just as many bugs that haven't been discovered because there aren't as many people targeting or using those browsers. Or maybe you just think that the problems with IE are proportional to the size of IE's code, which is significantly larger and more complex (since it is part of the operating system) than every other browser on the market today.
Whatever you think, my question is what are you going to do about it? There are some people on this board who have convinced themselves that they "have" to use Internet Explorer. I've been IE-free for a couple months and my surfing experience and online revenue have not suffered one bit. But to the rest of you, who think that you must use Internet Explorer to continue existing, have you done anything at all about it? Have you reported your complaints to anyone? Have you stopped buying or using other Microsoft products as a result of your dissatisfaction?
There are a lot of fine people on this board, but I also see a lot of cry-babies ... a lot of people who whine and complain and instead of doing something about it they just continue to settle for less than they think they deserve.
If you're so dissatisfied with the product, and for some reason refuse to stop using it, did the thought ever occur to you to contact Microsoft? Not with threats of abandoning the OS or silly "accountability" suggestions or anything like that mind you, but just an honest "I'm dissatisfied with your product because" message. If enough people start complaining to MICROSOFT you might actually see something get done about the problem. Complaining on forums and continuing to use the product does about as much good as complaining about politicians and continuing to vote for them.
The URL below will allow anyone to submit comments to Microsoft. It only took about 25 seconds to find on their site ... use it. I can't promise it will do any good, but complaining there has a higher probability of success than complaining here.
Send them your comments ... what is it going to hurt? And don't give me any crap about how it's not worth your time - if it wasn't worth your time to complain about it, you wouldn't be doing it here. I would very much like for MS to fix the problems with IE because IE problems = OS problems and I happen to like the Windows operating system and don't want to switch to another OS.
I have been providing MS with constructive feedback every year since Win3.0 was beta. I will continue to do so despite the feeling that it all goes straight to null.
I could have sent this via sticky ...but the experience is maybe uesfull for others ..so
You don't have a very high tolerance for fools..or deliberately bad or stupid ..
Microsofts management's "stringpullers" are with theur comtempt of their customers ..all 3..
Tell microsoft about problems and suggest fixes ...?
( Ok ..you know who I really am ..so do some others here )
..So do Microsoft ..( Howcome ...? )
Cos I already did just that ..long time ago ..before all this crap hit the fan ..
...I phoned them "on my dime" transatlantic ( cos when I phoned their French office I discovered that even tho the French invented arrogance Microsoft France appear to be making sure that they have all the genetic variants of it patented and in use ....they just didn't give a "reproductive act"...I got their front desk ( and explained they had a security problem coming up ) after 30 ( for which I was paying the call ) mins I got some "snotty tech geek"( and explained they had a security problem coming up ) who said ( translated from the french ) ..I don't have time to listen or discuss about security issues ..I have my phones ringing all the day about installation issues of our product , that is my priority ..to explain to people how to install Xp ( it was new at the time )..
So I phoned Redmond ( and explained they had a security problem coming up ) ..who told me to phone Dc.. I did ( and explained they had a security problem coming up )...who put me on six consecutive holds of upto 45 minutes ..mostly I just listened to phones ringing in obviously empty offices where someone shoulda been... but was havin their hair done.. or golf.. or white lines or whatever ( I have my phone bill ..in all to M$ about 680$ )...the Dc operators?...they got "cute" when I hung up and redailed transatlantic ..and asked did they ever look at the lights on their PBX to see if someone actually picked up the phones ...this happened 6 or 7 times ...
So I phoned LA ( and explained they had a security problem coming up )...got some nice guy who managed to send me an email after 3 days ( thats how long it took for him to get "authorisation" to reply by email to me! )...Who put me in touch with their security division ...( who BTW ..don't use Norton anything to watch over their IE whatevers ...they think "thats reel funny" .."norton ..ROTFALOL" )...I told them by email "they had a security problem coming up"
<digress>
So why do they advertise / exchange links to symantec on the updates etc page....?
</wouldn't you wonder...I nearly did , then I got real : >
Eventually I had many long conversations phone and email ( during which we discussed the obvious that they had a security problem coming up ) with a guy who runs their European security divison ...on my ex directory line which I gave them ..( this info is enough to make "Press cutting geek" run for his boss, cos they know who did this and this post will no doubt get back to the guy ( hi P! ..now you know who is Leosghost ;) ) ..serious guy ..doing his best ...like him ..sincere ..unlike some I spoke to ...
I discovered that they actually have to "outsource" ( in Europe at least ) all their really difficult security work ...
So we worked on some stuff and the only problems were with Redmond...( details you don't need ) ..around the mydoom issue( ..it was showing itself long before the alerts went out ) but there were others ..some of which are being mentioned now ..some to come ...
Some particular issues are still not fixed ..no doubt there will be many many others ...cos Redmond doesn't give a "reproductive act" ..and in M$ in The rest of the world ..( with the exception of mr "F" ..and another guy who isn't directly with them ) ..is just like the "tech geek" in France ..Only interested in moving the product ...( remember your Pink Floyd man ..final cut.... "Not now john!"....'s like that in Redmond )...
appreciate what you're trying to say R but ..the guys that make the decisions there ( even tho they may come out and wring their hands etc in the near future over this and other soon to be knowns ) ..really dont give a "reproductive act" ..it was taken out of Bills hands along time ago ..not that they were spotless ..but they were much cleaner than those that sign the reely big checks there now ..
in view of which it's maybe not so bad if we have to go through some panes and we open the internet....
Even if it means I gotta learn Penguin ..at least we can all help each other out while we're making code or money or whatever ..
but contact M$ about security issues ..been there ..done that ..won't be wasting my time agin ...
< loads more details but noone needs to know them ..we aren't running a hackclass here and I'm already expecting a phone call now from Mr F ..but it needed to be said )
digitalv ...sorry to hijack your thread ..but M$ has it's apologists here ....man you're more use being yourself or curious than even being seen to go near that water ...
there's even bits of 'doze I quite like ..love the blue screens ;)
they don't want to make their OS better..they wanna roll out palladium ...
..So if they dont give a rats ass ..why should we ...~;)
a really bad DOS on the wrong system servers can take a plane out of the sky or into another or a building ..we've been there ..seen that ..don't wanna see,hear, experience it again ...
911 was not the fault of M$ ..and I'm in no way insinuating or claiming or trying to associate otherwise ...but a widely used OS with as many holes as 'doze in all flavours is the target of very many people ..and not just to put scumware on your box ...
Zombies and other compromised computers are potential weapons ...surf safely ...
Here [register.microsoft.com] is another page at MS for giving them suggestions on improving their products.
[edited by: DaveAtIFG at 1:01 am (utc) on July 15, 2004]
[edit reason] Fixed side scroll [/edit]
a really bad DOS on the wrong system servers can take a plane out of the sky or into another or a building
Maybe if they DOS expedia.com, they'll overbook a flight, and it'll get too heavy and crash?
Otherwise, I AM SURE that none of this mission critical software is even accessible from the internet. Even from a VPN off the internet with 3 firewalls.
If anything, its on private secure lines hosted by companies that do this kind of thing.
So enough with hyperbole pls.
Ever worked in air traffic flight control or commcen?
Me .yes ...
Hyperbole ...
Larf until you cry ...
PPS ..someone broke the page ..
[edited by: Leosghost at 12:56 am (utc) on July 14, 2004]
Whatever you think, my question is what are you going to do about it?
Well... I currently have the User Agent in Firefox showing "Dump IE - Use Firefox (compatible; MSIE 6.0; Windows NT 5.1)"
As you note, even here at WW, there are people who are married to IE. I have no idea why this is, but other than people clueing in, as a result of reading constant warnings about IE security, and deciding to dump it themselves, I can't see how those of us who only use IE to check our own webpages are going to change things. The world is crawling with idiots... you can't force them to not be idiots. Like Leosghost noted, M$ doesn't give a hoot about it; Bill just sits there on his big heap of dough thinking about how to get more... I bet Gates runs Linux on his own box.
Good luck with it anyway, man.
( Ok ..you know who I really am ..so do some others here )
Hey Leosghost, any chance of a hint in your user profile for the rest of us?
just meant that M$ and me have had dealings on security and I know that I'm gonna get mailed or called after this post ..there are those inside M$ who are not at all happy with the policy of "rats ass" ..and who daren't speak up..
why nothing in the profile ...?
I have enough trouble with people trying to take down servers as it is ...and security is just a side line ( ex hacker )..if you saw my personal site " No website hath greater keyword spamminess" ..works a treat tho ...;)
So do the other sites that I've done for others ..which are much prettier and more techie ...
Still cant do CSS for s*** tho ..to me it was always a DVD unmentionable thing ...
and for now I dont need the backlink from WebmasterWorld for any of em ..
< purple martin ..can you pleas put a. before htm at the end of your url you posted ..you broke the page >
[edited by: Leosghost at 1:15 am (utc) on July 14, 2004]
You can contaminate any thing with something that was downloaded from the internet or elswhere and later ( unwittingly )delivered by hand via the cd tray to a machine behind the firewall ...
What exactly is your point? That if i can get into an air traffic control center and install malware from a CD that this is somehow MSFT's fault?
And that if only the kernel was open source'd, that this problem would disappear?
Now, before everyone jumps on me, I'm not saying that Microsoft should be let off so easily. They do need to fix things. I just find it amazing that hackers seem to be so well liked in here or something that I can't understand....
Jennifer
Mono culture plus secrecy is only helping the hackers and those who sell Av's etc ...
I can sticky you ( not now its 03.00 am my time and I'm nearly dead ) ..tomorrow with addresses where the holes in 'doze etc are being openly discussed in the hackworlds ...secrecy isn't helping..it's getting in the way ..and it's not important with M$ management ....
do you work for these people ..M$..I worked with them and I don't like what I saw ..I'm not alone ..
and then one day ..your neighbour's pussy cat just scratches her way in cos the door is just painted paper ..so you call the builder and he lies some more ..says he'll change the door .. and he just paints some grey metal paint on it ..and so on and so on and so on ..
then one day a bad guy come ..sees the fake door..knows all about fake doors ..cos thats the only kind "builder" does ...bad guy breaks in and you're toast...
and then you discover "builder" didn"t forget ..no ..his brother inlaw is the guy you have been paying each time to come over and slap the grey paint on ... Builder and he are running this scam ..
And from time to time he says to his brother .."hire a few bad guys to put paint on "....
jennifer ..don't be naive...
< purple martin ..can you pleas put a. before htm at the end of your url you posted ..you broke the page >
you taking notes jennifer and webdevsf ( there is an accepted ..cos we know it don't break other peoples stuff ..( funny I call that lack of respect for others peoples pages / browsers hacking too ) ..standard for urls..and character styles ..line lengths etc ..M$ don't do "respect others" ) ...
Not your fault Purple martin ....happens all the time ..every time you boot 'doze ..
On this note ...nite all ...à demain ..
I think the funniest thing about all of this sudden MS bashing (more so than usual) is that everyone is forgetting one key player in all of this... THE HACKER!
Sudden?
There are two key players, MS and the hackers.
There will always be crooks. There will always be scheisters like Bill Gates who sell you shoddy goods. You have to watch out for slimy characters with everything you do... like using a computer. That's why anyone who has any wits about them will abandon IE. What is it anyway? Some patriotic duty to use that piece of crap?
To get back on topic: one thing we can do about IE is to encourage others to stop using that browser asap, as I now encourage you to do. If you're still using IE, you're using a very inferior browser, (even if you have every dodgy MS patch automatically updated whenever Bill wants to poke around inside your computer).
You don't have a very high tolerance for fools..or deliberately bad or stupid ..
they don't want to make their OS better..they wanna roll out palladium .....So if they dont give a rats ass ..why should we ...~;)
Personally I don't ... I never had any problems with IE, I switched to Firefox because I decided to give it a try and ended up liking it better. I really DON'T give a rat's ass, just tired of people whining. It's a friggin web browser, if you don't like it download a different one and get over yourself.
I think the funniest thing about all of this sudden MS bashing (more so than usual) is that everyone is forgetting one key player in all of this... THE HACKER!
This is very true. I think your "forgot to put a door" analogy is a bit off though, heh. A better one could be putting blame on the company that makes the locks. I don't know of any lock that an experienced locksmith can't get into - so if an experienced locksmith decides to "go burglar" and picks the lock on my front door and robs me, should that lock manufacturer be liable? There are no such things as "minimum security requirements" or standards for the security of our homes nor are there the same for web browsers.
Think about it before you answer ... because you're basically saying the same thing about IE's security here. If you put a lock on your front door that you know to be of low quality, it's really your own stupid fault, not the manufacturers.
BTW ..me neither I never had squat by way of grief with IE ( and I always run wide open ..and frequent some exotique neighbourhoods :)..but then we know more about how to stay clean than the average joe surf ..and if they all get creamed and throw the box in the garbage and don't buy another ..thats the sort of consumer switch of that eventually hits everyone's bottom line wether it's hardware or art...;)
Whats nice about firefox is the speed and the extras ..and that sometimes it lets you relax and just go with the flow instead of thinkin like with IE .."well I'm gonna have to spend 30 mins cleaning up and putting the house back in order ..before I can open anything" ..
we don't all have "extra metal" between Redmonds crap/ our modems and the big bad outside ;)
.."well I'm gonna have to spend 30 mins cleaning up and putting the house back in order ..before I can open anything" ..
*hollow laughter echoing a LONG way down....*
Leo.... not one in TEN THOUSAND "normal" net users thinks that.... maybe not one in a HUNDRED THOUSAND....
