Paid Inktomi listing using Looksmart description?

[sparrow]

Does any one know why only a Looksmart listing would appear in the "Pure Inktomi" search.

I've noticed a grave decrease in the number of click throughs for our Inktomi submissions.

Any ideas?

[john316]

I think that the customers using INK for search results have the ability to manipulate the ranks. There is a possibility that with the LS thing going on, that MSN is doing some reshuffling with the results to favor LS stuff.

Just a possibility!

[Marcia]

>>Does any one know why only a Looksmart listing would appear in the "Pure Inktomi" search.

sparrow, I'm not clear on exactly what you're seeing. Is it at Hotbot or PT? The page you're talking about - is it a Looksmart page that's not paid Ink or a paid Inktomi page that has the Looksmart title and description?

[sparrow]

This is the situation....
We've paid the Inktomi submission, waited the 3 days and became listed.

However we're still not showing in AOL... ok give it a little time..

Looksmart goes to pay to click, AOL goes Google...

Next thing I know, we've not had any Inktomi clicks since 4/12/02.

I perform a "Pure Inktomi" search on PT and find the "Looksmart" description is being pulled up.

I check MSN, of course they pull from Looksmart, so I check AOL and guess what, it's the Looksmart listing and I can only pull it up by the site title, nothing more.

I just checked a site that we do not have a Looksmart listing for and it reflects the "true" Inktomi submission.

So I guess my question is ... why is AOL pulling the Looksmart listing?

Did I just confuse everyone?

[Marcia]

sparrow, it's not confusing how you explained it, but it's a little confusing what Inktomi might be doing.

>I just checked a site that we do not have a Looksmart listing for and it reflects the "true" Inktomi submission.

Let's see if I have this right:

Page 1 - for a paid Ink page without a LS listing Ink/AOL is showing your actual title and description. I assume this is the index page of the site.

Page 2 - The paid Ink page with a LS listing is showing not yours, but what Looksmart has for the title and description - this is a newly paid for page, and I assume it's also the index page of this site.

>However we're still not showing in AOL... ok give it a little time..

Maybe we do need to wait until it shows up at AOL with an update before we jump to any conclusions, but it does sound strangely suspicious.

[toolman]

Yeah, they do that. It's irritating isn't it? I've also seen them use the ODP descriptions.

[sparrow]

Just how long does it take for AOL to up date from Ink. I am almost positive that Ink was submitted way before, LS was. In fact I know it was.

I am going to check another two sites we have one had a paid Ink and LS the other just Ink.

Be back in a minute.

[groul]

Hi

In our case it took about 3 weeks after we paid Inktomi for our site to appear on AOL Search, meanwhile MSN Search started showing our pages in a week only.

Anyway I wouldn't bother about "Inktomi for AOL" traffic that much, 'cause AOL is swithing to Google this summer.

[sparrow]

Ok this is what I found.

If you have a Looksmart Listing, it is pulled first then way down the list, WAY DOWN, you might find the Ink listing.

I also noticed that when I renewed the Ink listing (took over the account from a previous webmaster) Ink used the page they submitted, which doesn't exist anymore and has a redirect on it, and posted the Description from the page I submitted (the proper page THE INDEX PAGE).

What's going on here????

Any way, even if you have not listed with Ink, AOL is using the LS listings as the primary source, Ink as secondary. I check all the sites we have, if their is a Looksmart listing, it appears first, and way down on the list if there is a Ink listing then it appears. Of course if you only have an Ink listing it appears.

This explains why our Ink click throughs are virtually no existent.

So is LS in bed with AOL now too?

[sparrow]

I'm not worried about it I am glad that Google has AOL.

But what irrates the dickens out of me is the waste of money!

Why pay Ink, when you've already paid LS. Doesn't make sense.

When you use PT to do the Pure Search and it pulls the LS listing 1st, (by the way the LS listing I am referring to, seems only to be pulled by the site title ONLY, no keyword phrases)it's a bummer!

Are we wasting our money posting to both?

[sparrow]

Just find something interesting out.

One of our sites have run out of click from LS (no more freebies, until the 17th)however, I queried MSN, and the Looksmart listing is their with their url, and directly below it is the "so called Ink listing (identical to the LS listing) with the "redirect-west-inktomi" URL. Better yet it includes the "//r.lksm.com" in the redirect.

So, it does look like Ink and LS are up to something.

[makemetop]

>So, it does look like Ink and LS are up to something.

I think L$ are up to something! L$ pay Ink to spider their DB and have done for some time. It is nothing unusual to find your L$ title and description where your Ink listing should be - this has been going on for more than a year. Since the L$ PPC deal I have noticed many sites which have listings in L$ and are in Ink have the L$ PPC tracking code in there. Even stranger, I found the Ink redirect code showing up in my L$ listings (when I checked on MSN). For my sites, I called my Ink inclusion partner and reported this. The PPC tracking codes were removed from my Ink listings within 48 hours. I suggest you do the same thing.

[chiyo]

It also makes sense for MSN to use the maybe higher-paying LS link rather than the Ink link when they have to choose between the two.

[namniboose]

Please can you tell me how to identify the tracking code? Is it the numbers at the end of the URL?

[sparrow]

Your L$ url will be prefaced with the looksmart url, then the code, your Ink redirect will show "redirec-west...

thats the easiest way to tell them apart.

[sparrow]

Thanks makemetop

I've already sent any inquiry into them, but now I've found some hard evidence. I'll email them again with this info.

[makemetop]

An Ink URL including the L$ tracking code will look like:

"http://redirect-west.inktomi.com/click?u=http://r.lksm.com/go/t%3D20-41:15452%7C60785034%3Bg%3Dz/http://www.yourdomain.com/&....."

[sanity]

This may be a silly question but does "redirect-west.inktomi.com" only come up for paid Ink pages or all pages? I always assumed it was for paid only...

[Marcia]

For the paid pages sanity, that's how you can tell them apart.

[sanity]

Thanks Marcia that's what I thought.

Trouble is I have a non-paid page in Ink with the redirect-west code in it. It is a paid L$ listing and does include the L$ code too as described by MakeMeTop. Anyone seen this or have any ideas??

[sparrow]

That's what started this thread. L$ and Ink seem to be up to something.

[NFFC]

In November 1999, we entered into an agreement with Inktomi Corp. to co-bundle our search technologies for offerings to portals. In December 2000, we amended the agreement to provide for the inclusion of the LookSmart directory in Inktomi's search index and to provide for sharing of revenues derived from Inktomi's distribution of Subsite Listings.

L$ SEC filing [sec.gov]

[Marcia]

If they are marketing the paid Inktomi service on the basis of a 48 hour refresh and using the Looksmart title and description, then to be ethical they should disclose that, because it makes the 48 hour refresh completely useless for those pages.

[sparrow]

Absolutely correct Marcia.

This is really quite irritating. Nowhere on Looksmart or Inktomi does it say they do this. Or am I blind??

[sparrow]

Some one please tell me the point to submitting to both at this time?
If L$ seems to overwrite Ink, then why would anybody submit to Ink if they have already submitted to L$.
Or I am missing something here?

[chiyo]

"at this time" is the key sparrow. I think most people who are in both indexes did it before LS and Ink forged their agreement. In our case LS and INK both picked up our sites without paying before the pay per indexing era.

[Marcia]

Not noticably, sparrow. But we've been suggesting here at the the board for a long time that it's better to do the Ink pages for interior pages rather than the index page.

Looking at the number of Looksmart listings for a given keyword phrase at MSN is part of the decision-making process when doing Inktomi pages. The index page tends to be focused on keyword phrases that are broader, and therefore more competitive; and often less targeted, too. So in choosing pages/keywords, picking those that have very few Looksmart listings tend to yield better results, from the standpoint of MSN, anyway.

One of the advantages of these pages is that you can move them from one page within a site to another (except at bCentral).

[sparrow]

Marcia
I understand what you are saying, but it's always been some what of an irritation to me to continously see all pages from someones site. One after another. It's like those PopUp or now the fad is PopUnder ad's. If was interested in them I would selected the index page.

Is my thought process to "old hat"?

[Napoleon]

>> then to be ethical they should disclose that <<

More than unethical... add yet more deception to the L$/INK pot.

You pay for 48 hour re-indexing/re-spider, yet whatever changes you make to your site will not matter a hoot to your ranking... because they get the title and desc from L$.

Do they tell you this anywhere? I think not... and if not, deception is the word.

[sparrow]

I agree Napoleon!

By the way thanks for your help with Dmoz.

I sent a query to PT the other day and note back to me simply said, "they see no problem" they see the link and the can pull the link"

DUH! That wasn't the question!

So I sent the expamples to them PLAIN AS DAY, the url code for the L$ listing and it's appearance and the "so called" INK url code and it's appearance.

Now let's see what they have to say!