Referendum in Scotland

[BeeDeeDubbleU]

How many people outside of the UK are aware of this year's independence referendum in Scotland (and its implications)?

[graeme_p]

The UK should not need to change its name. Not sure about the flag.

The debate is getting a bit nastier. Immediately ruling out a currency union has riled some Scots, and the SNP's response of threatening to not take a share of the UK's national debt is going to anger the rest of the UK if it looks likely to become reality. The only feasible UK response would be to halt an independence agreement until an agreement is reached on the national debt, which will then make things even less amicable.

Its still better than fighting a war over it as most countries do!

Under nationalism, elected representatives are from the same place, speak the same language, enjoy the same culture and experience the same environment as the people who vote them in as public servants.

Speaking the same language is not an argument for Scottish independence - it may be one for an independent Newcastle.

A lot of Scottish independence advocates seem driven by disillusion with the "Westminster elite" - something they share with the rest of the UK!

[ronin]

I'm not sure that the UK will require a name change.

The UK should not need to change its name.

The name is currently United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland.

The Kingdom of Great Britain resulted from the union of the kingdoms of England (comprising modern-day England and Wales) and Scotland in 1707. Subsequently, in 1801, the Kingdom of Great Britain united with the neighbouring Kingdom of Ireland forming the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland. When five-sixths of Ireland seceded from the United Kingdom in 1922, the state was renamed the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland.

Source: Wikipedia's entry on Great Britain

So... if Scotland becomes independent, I'm not sure that the UK can fail to require a name change.

[graeme_p]

Sorry, I meant it can keep the United Kingdom part of the name as you suggested.

Incidentally, what will Scots who have new top level .uk domains do in the event of independence? Will Nominet let the keep them, given they require a UK address (OK, you can work around that? What about migrating off other other .uk domains?

Its a bit early to make plans, but has anyone affected thought about it?

[londrum]

would we really want to carry on calling ourselves the "united" kingdom though, when it had split up? it would be a bit of a misnomer

...if scotland refuses to take its share of the debt, then we will just block their application to join the EU which requires every member to agree (even though Salmond says they will somehow just magically bypass that). scotland wont want to be outside of the EU. but will we have the balls to do that? probably not

of course salmond will just say that we are bullying him again, like he does whenever someone disagrees with him.

[BeeDeeDubbleU]

...if scotland refuses to take its share of the debt, then we will just block their application to join the EU which requires every member to agree (even though Salmond says they will somehow just magically bypass that). scotland wont want to be outside of the EU. but will we have the balls to do that? probably not

To all of you from outside the UK, this is a good illustration of the attitudes that drive Scots to seek independence. A large percentage of people in England (particularly in the south east) think that we are there to be "told" and to fall into line. The problem is that they don't know Scotland or the Scots. ;)

What Londrum fails to acknowledge is that that Scotland has pleaded with the UK government to negotiate on currency and other important issues before the vote but the refuse to do so. They then use this uncertainty to promote unionism.

Mack, you are a Scot and a Unionist. Do you agree with Londrum's plan or do you think that perhaps negotiations should be taking place.

[londrum]

You are trotting out the same kind of line as salmond — that scotland is somehow being hard done by because england doesnt want to take on billions of pounds of extra debt. its the scots who are trying to get away with not paying their debt, remember. And we are just supposed to meekly accept that without saying anything? Every time we turn around and say "well hang on a minute, we disagree with that" you try and paint us as interfering old bullies

[topr8]

@BeeDeeDubbleU

is there not the same anti eu feeling in scotland as there is in england?

i'm confused by the whole issue, why would scotland want to leave the uk only to then join the eu (which is certainly becoming more and more federalist and in the long long as a small country in the eu are likely to end up with little autonomy) ... surely the old adage, 'better the enemy you know' would apply.
(not that Scotland/rest of uk are enemies, but you know what i mean)

[engine]

To all of you from outside the UK, this is a good illustration of the attitudes that drive Scots to seek independence.

That is one person, who is entitled to their views, but may not necessarily reflect the views of others. "We" is not me, and it's not in my name. So let's not go painting whitewash over everything, and let's not get personal.

I believe the UK is stronger together, but I also hold the view that it's the voters' right to choose.

What's going wrong in the general debate is the biassed views and scaremongering from both sides. It's not helping the decision-making process at all. We need facts without opinion.

[BeeDeeDubbleU]

topr8, Scotland is much more pro Europe than England. The UK independence party (UKIP) is a far right, anti-European, xenophobic party that is gaining lots of ground in the UK. Some people are even forecasting that they will be the second largest party in the UK at the next UK elections. They have no representation is Scotland and unlikely to have any in future. Scotland does not want them.

[BeeDeeDubbleU]

its the scots who are trying to get away with not paying their debt, remember.

You are mistaken. Scotland has clearly agreed to take on its fair share of the debt.

[londrum]

So when salmond threatened the complete opposite the other day, when he couldnt get his way over the pound... that wasnt scotland talking

(Im actually on your side in this discussion, by the way... you are preaching to the choir. I hope they vote yes too. So maybe i will stop disagreeing with you now!)

[Samizdata]

why would scotland want to leave the uk only to then join the eu

Scotland is already in the EU, and has been for 40 years.

Its people are already EU citizens with full EU rights.

Many have a passport with "European Union" written at the top.

There is apparently no mechanism in place to expel them.

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[aakk9999]

These benefits are less obvious for Scotland in 2014, but if you were a Slovene as the Austrian Empire collapsed or Tito's Yugoslavia fell apart, they are more obvious.

Interestingly, the difference in Croatia (which was part of Yugoslavia) is that before the split they blamed "politicians of other nationin" that were in power. Now they blame their own polititians for the same things. So nothing much changes. It is likely that if Scotland splits off, the will find this too. The grass is not always greener.

[lucy24]

Texas is the only nation to become a US State

Some Hawaiians would consider this a fairly hair-splitting distinction.

In the 19th century, Scotland was the only part of the English-speaking world where one had even a remote chance of a halfway adequate medical education. Scottish immigrants to Canada must be considered responsible for That Diphthong.

The foregoing represents the sum total of my knowledge about Scotland.

[ronin]

I believe the UK is stronger together

I have no doubt you're right and unionists on both sides of the border would agree with you. However, the relative strength of the UK is not going to be an issue for nationalists.

is there not the same anti eu feeling in scotland as there is in england?

Not a chance. And, rationally, you wouldn't expect it. The EU gives Scottish nationalists a safe and reliable framework / environment within which to operate an independent state.

i'm confused by the whole issue, why would scotland want to leave the uk only to then join the eu

Because the EU enables small national states to stand up independently within a relatively secure and reliable framework / environment.

Without the EU, it makes sense (at least to those who want to see a stable, influential economy) for Bavaria to be part of Germany, for Catalonia to be part of Spain and for Scotland to be part of Great Britain.

With the EU free-trade, civic freedom-of-movement / abode / employment, universally-adopted legislation umbrella in place... now you can small be again, without any danger of your larger neighbour next-door, pulverising your economy or (worse) marching over the border.

[londrum]

i dont think greece will agree with you. they all reckon the germans are bashing their economy to bits
at least as part of the UK Scotland plays a big role in the ruling government (it wasn't so long ago that the PM was scottish). what chance is there of scotland shaping EU policy once they've left the UK? next to none. (but maybe the UK will leave the EU soon too, so maybe there is no difference)

[Lame_Wolf]

Scotland is already in the EU, and has been for 40 years.

It hasn't. And nor has England. The UK has.

Its people are already EU citizens with full EU rights.

We don't have full EU rights. You try importing tobacco from an EU country to the UK. Customs jump on you.

[Samizdata]

It hasn't. And nor has England. The UK has.

Lumps of rock have no membership of anything.

We don't have full EU rights.

Learn about the rights of EU citizens here:

[ec.europa.eu...]

...

[Lame_Wolf]

Lumps of rock have no membership of anything.

Contradicting your previous statememt eh? Samizdata

Learn about the rights of EU citizens here:

Like I said before, we do not have full rights.

[Samizdata]

Contradicting your previous statememt eh? Samizdata

Not at all.

The EU is a union of sovereign states.

A sovereign state is a legal entity with a permanent population represented by a government.

It is about people, not abstract concepts or lumps of rock.

The people of Scotland are EU citizens and will remain so whatever the result of the referendum.

The question on the ballot paper is “Should Scotland be an independent country?”

It says nothing about leaving the EU or renouncing EU citizenship and rights.

Like I said before, we do not have full rights.

You can say that Idi Amin was King of Scotland if you want.

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[londrum]

it doesn't matter what your politicians believe though, does it, if the rest of europe says the opposite is true. the european president has already come out and said publicly that independence means reapplying to the EU. salmond is feeding you daydreams that he's dreamt up himself

[Lame_Wolf]

Contradicting your previous statememt eh? Samizdata

Not at all. 

The EU is a union of sovereign states. 

A sovereign state is a legal entity with a permanent population represented by a government. 

Yes, you are.

Lets look at what you said...
"Scotland is already in the EU, and has been for 40 years."

Here is a list of the EU countries...
[europa.eu...]

Where does it say Scotland, or even England?

However, it does say the UK, which is what I said in the first place, and you stated otherwise.

Lat time I went to Scotland, it was to Paisley. I am sorry to say this, but it was a <expletive> dump. It made James Turner Street look uber-posh. The houses had graffiti, gardens overgrown with weeds, and rubbish all over the place, gardens, pavement and road. You had to watch where you were putting your feet due to the amount of dog kak everywhere.

I walked down the same street the next morning, and a broken sofa and chairs had appeared, blocking the pavement and some of the road. People screaming and shouting at each other. Even the fields were strewn with rubbish.

I have walked the streets of Houston, at night, alone and unarmed. Yet, I felt safer doing that than walking in Paisley, or England.

Don't get me wrong, there are plenty of nice views in Scotland. If you go to the borders, you can see some pretting English towns. And on a clear day, you can see Ireland. :)

If you want Independence, then it has to be 100% Independence.

That means...
1: Stop speaking and writing in English. You have your own language, use it.
2: No more GBP.
3: No money from Westminster and visa-versa.
4: No more NHS. The N stands for National, and as you will no longer be part of the Nation, go private or start the SHS.
5: Stop using GMT - As the scots hate us so much, and do not like being ruled by the south, start your own time. We would like that because so far, every time we try and sort out the clock, a couple of farmers in Scotland whinge about it and it gets declined. If you leave, then may be we can do away with altering the clocks each year.
6: Look what happened to Africa when they got their Independence. Now we see adverts asking for £3 a month. In a couple of years time, I do not want to see any Save a Scot for £3 a month adverts. I don;t want to hear that you have to walk 3 miles to the nearest pub. You want Independence, then that means cutting the strings with everyone and no begging bowls.

Personally, I think Scotland will be silly to try and go it alone, but it's up to you.

[BeeDeeDubbleU]

Lame Wolf at risk of having this thread closed I have to tell you that the above post is one of the most uninformed and stupid I have ever read in here. In your obvious ignorance you are making a right fool of yourself. :(

[ronin]

1: Stop speaking and writing in English. You have your own language, use it.

Ah, no, that's not really fair. Then you'd have to insist that Ukrainians all speak Ukrainian, Finns all speak Finnish, Irish all speak Irish, Luxembourgers all speak Luxembourgish etc.

[Lame_Wolf]

There was some tongue and cheek in what I said. The Scots are always going on about the English and how they hate us so much, yet still want to use some things.

If I said that Scots people do not have a sense of humour, I would be told that I was sterotyping.

[Lame_Wolf]

BeeDeeDubbleU, It depends on your interpretation of independence and how far you go with it. To me, it (in a nut shell) means standing on your own two feet.

There is more to your independence than what has already been said (here and other places) but there are other things that are overlooked.

I have had a similar arguement with my own mother. I offer her a lift, and she goes on about her independence. I tell her that she is relying on a bus to take her everywhere, therefore she isn't independent. Get yourself a car or bike, or walk, then you are independent.

My wife disagrees, and says I am being aspie again, but I disagree. All depends on your interpretation of independence.

I don't like change, so for that reason alone, I would want you to stay. Too much faffing about, too much cost involved etc etc.

But if you do get it, then you have to cuts ties with the rest of the UK. Don't claim independence with one hand, and something else with the other.

[Rugles]

I hope Scotland stays in the UK.

I have nothing to gain or lose but I do feel that the Scots will suffer by being in a smaller nation.

[Samizdata]

the european president has already come out and said publicly that independence means reapplying to the EU

There is no "European President".

President of the European Union (or President of Europe) could be a reference to any of:

President of the European Council (since 1 December 2009, Herman Van Rompuy)
President of the European Commission (since 22 November 2004, José Manuel Barroso)
Presidency of the Council of the European Union (since 1 January 2014, Greece)
President of the European Parliament (since 17 January 2012, Martin Schulz)

Among the cases presented above, referring to the President of the European Council as the President of the European Union (EU) is very common in the international media. Nevertheless the post presides only over the European Council - an institution of the EU - rather than presiding over the EU as a whole.

Source: Wikipedia

There are no EU rules or documents governing what will happen if a member state breaks up.

The EU has made no official statements whatsoever on the subject.

It will be negotiated if and when it happens.

"Scotland is already in the EU, and has been for 40 years."

That is correct - the people of Scotland are all EU citizens.

Lumps of rock in the UK are not.

Stop speaking and writing in English.

Perhaps you should demand the same of our US cousins.

After all, they declared independence long ago.

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[Lame_Wolf]

"Scotland is already in the EU, and has been for 40 years."


That is correct - the people of Scotland are all EU citizens

Scotland ARE EU members because they are a part of the UK. Scotland alone did not join the EU, it was a collective thing. <sigh>

The UK joined the EU. Not Scotland, not Wales, and not England.

[londrum]

The EU has made no official statements whatsoever on the subject.

It will be negotiated if and when it happens.

Isn't that something you should be told, before you vote? Its kind of important... knowing whether you will be a member of the EU or not

Barosso (European president or president of the european commission, or whatever you want to call him) has already publicly said that you will have to reapply, so you would think that salmond would want to get a definite answer either way, before september