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Could have implications?
(312 euros = £220 = $440)
[edited by: BeeDeeDubbleU at 7:42 am (utc) on Sep. 27, 2007]
That means that a student who needs a computer with e.g. Linux for whatever reason can't buy one
No, that means a student should flunk because he's too stupid or lazy to buy what he needs in the first place.
You can get Linux pre-installed by independent computer OEM's and a good starting place might be Linux.com, or (shock) AdWords advertisers that sell just what you seek.
Worst case you get the cheapest PC available with the version of Windows that adds no extra cost to the bundle, and replace it, and stop whining.
Will you go to buy a brand new car without a motor and wheels at a fancy car dealer? Just guess what the salesman will think of you...
OK, zealots don't care of what other people think of them.
So, buy the brand new car, take its motor and wheels out and get rid of them. Be happy.
In some non-US jurisdictions local consumer protection legislation trumps clauses in Microsoft's shrink-wrap licence agreement
I didn't know that. Anyone have any examples?
such as buying it with a computer mouse
I actually spoke to MS about this a while ago - as I was suspicious of buying a COA off eBay bundled with a couple of screws or a USB cable. Their reply was that it has to be something essential to the running of the computer, so in these cases the screws or cable wouldn't cut it, but I guess the mouse would, especially as Windows is particularly awkward to use without one!
Ford Pinto
The what?
Well, I strolled around 3 superstores in the US lately and 2 in Europe
You truly go to great lengths to get your groceries.
That means that a student who needs a computer with e.g. Linux for whatever reason can't buy one
Why a student? And I totally agree with zafile and incrediBILL, you're not looking in the right places, it is entirely possible to but a PC or laptop with no O/S.
To all users, Linux or otherwise, there is a clear choice, this guy chose to buy something he didn't want, details or circumstance are irrelevant, the ruling is wrong.
"Do you pine for the nice days of minix-1.1, when men were men and wrote their own device drivers? Are you without a nice project and just dying to cut your teeth on a OS you can try to modify for your needs?" *
Acer is probably not the right place to buy your computer.
So contact the appropriate computer dealer and ask for a machine for your own needs and requirements.
If you can't get a machine at a discounted price because it doesn't come with Microsoft Windows, that's your problem.
That's how the market works. When dealers sale stuff in very high volumes, that's when discounts are applied. That's how MS Windows and related hardware are sold.
* [groups.google.com...]
I'm glad I don't leave in France or any other European country.
If the laptop in question had been designed for sale as a bare-bones hardware device, with the user installing an OS of his own choosing, one could reasonably argue that requiring the user to buy Windows with the laptop was unfair. But it's 99.9999% safe to assume that Acer always intended its laptop to be a Windows machine, in the same way that Apple intends its Macs to be Mac OS machines or a set-top box manufacturer intends its cable box to run a version of Linux.
...If I could simplify further, it should be an issue of the consumer having a free choice of product. A computer pre-installed with a (retailer or factory-pre-paid) OS is two products - and the consumer is paying for both.
I also find the "car without a motor" argument to be a bit off the mark - the motor is the central purpose (motor!) of the car, so that would compare to the computer itself, not the OS. The OS would be your GPS/CD player/leather seats/fuzzy dice. Buy the car with the minimum, and opt to buy the rest.
Pre-installed software is sneaky - it hooks (endoctrinates) first-time users too ignorant to judge quality. MS owes its fortune to this very tactic - little else.
A Mac computer, on the other hand, is a package of two products made by the same manufacturer - hardware and software - but should OS X become installable on all platforms, it would (should) be treated as a product in itself - as should be windows.
[edited by: Josefu at 8:42 pm (utc) on Sep. 29, 2007]
Don't try to tell companies how to do business as they have a right to package products how they want and you have a right to not buy them. If there was a big enough demand for non-Windows bundled machines they would be stuffed in store shelves everywhere but they aren't so consider yourself in a small minority, smaller than the Mac market.
If you could gather enough nerds that could agree on a single a premium PC vendor product that you could guarantee a certain amount of business catering to your niche market they would probably jump at the chance with a significant sales opportunity. Sadly this will never happen because those same nerds that don't want Windows can't agree on a single hardware platform.
Until then, you can either accept mass market Windows pre-installed reality, find an OEM that will ship a blank machine as they exist if your look, or start your own company and cater to the Linux-PC market.
Don't try to tell companies how to do business as they have a right to package products how they want and you have a right to not buy them.
I can't understand why people would argue against this.
You buy what is in the market, you can forward your opinions, but you can't take them to court for not giving you the better half of the product.
If Acer are not selling their laptops without the Ms software, how about looking for other companies who does sell them without it.
It is amazing how consumers can command companies to produce what they wanted or face the risk of being sued.
Don't try to tell companies how to do business as they have a right
In some non-US jurisdictions local consumer protection legislation trumps clauses in Microsoft's shrink-wrap license agreement
I didn't know that. Anyone have any examples?
It's forced onto the user after it has been bought without having agreed to the limiting terms first
Many of them refund you, if you don't want what you bought. So in anyway, you have got the opportunity to read and agree to the terms and conditions.
Anyway, not many people read the agreements. At some point, we all look for that "I agree" button somewhere on the screen.
It's not an agreement (not signed by both parties)
Clicking on "I agree" button is in every way equivalent to putting your signature on a paper. Should Ballmer be doing whatever he is doing or collect signatures of people who bought a software from Microsoft for 50 bucks or so. :)
Pre-installed software is sneaky - it hooks (endoctrinates) first-time users too ignorant to judge quality
Sneaky? Did the advert in the shop not state that it came with Windows +whatever else? I'll bet it did.
Would you rather the first time user bought a system with no software, so he got his proud purchase home, then realised he couldn't use it?
Or should our first time user search the net for a downloadable copy of Linux, burn it to CD, attempt to install it from the overly techie and briefly written (by someone calling himself TheLinuxKingMSisCrap) README.TXT?
But wait! He's a first time user, he can't access the internet, download anything, or burn to CD because his computer has no software on it.
owes its fortune to this very tactic - little else.
And hundreds of thousands of people who bought a cheap PC with a user friendly interface owe that to M$'s tactic.
People who hate M$ just cos they're successful need to get over their jealousy and get a job.
Hey, I stayed at a B&B not long ago, but I didn't have the breakfast bundled in the price, maybe we should all club together and sue B&B's where we didn't want the bundled breakfast?
swa66,
It's not an agreement (not signed by both parties)
I believe that's a contract, as this isn't a contract I'm not sure that applies, but I'm not sure where the line is drawn between the 2.
It's forced onto the user after it has been bought without having agreed to the limiting terms first
The CD pouch will say something like "By using this software you're agreeing to the terms". Hence giving you a chance to read and use it, or take back for a refund.
In an online sale or download, the terms and conditions must be displayed before the user has downloaded, that way you have to have read and agreed to them.
I'm not trying to say you're wrong, I'm not a legal buff, just my POV.
Clicking on "I agree" button is in every way equivalent to putting your signature on a paper
I recently applied for a credit card online, they used to send you a contract to sign and send back, now the "I agree" button states that you are accepting the terms, and is as good as a signature.
Acer then offered 30 Euros to the user, and instructed him to return the laptop to them so that the hard-drive could be wiped. So, in essence, Acer agreed to sell the laptop without Windows. The rest is arguing about the compensation for the software that Acer themselves said was not a vital component (because they were prepared to sell a "naked" laptop).
Incidentally, there are several indications that the judgment is poorly-written and is unlikely to create much in a way of precedent.
Acer's error, in this case, was clearly that they should have offered a refund for the laptop rather than agreeing to sell it without the bundled software, if they considered that software to be an integral part of the offering.
I'm a Linux user who was recently bought a laptop which included Windows. The supplied documentation implies that removing Windows could affect warranty. I accepted the Windows license when asked, and I was well aware of alternatives when I purchased the machine. However, the issue with pre-installed Windows is different from merely being the "tires on the car", it's a question of the anti-competitive contracts required by MS when dealing with manufacturers, which forces them to always install an operating system on every machine sold to protect MS from piracy problems. This judgment, whilst flawed, is nevertheless a notable development in opening up competition in the OS market.
When I buy a car I insist the dealer put real tires on it before I will buy it, instead of the cheap bundled tires.
Just to stir the pot a bit, I purchased a BMW 1200GS Adventure last year, and it comes with knobby tires. The dealer happily changed the tires to a more street oriented tire in order to take my money.
I purchased a Toyota Tundra three weeks ago and it came with 20" premium wheels, which the dealer took back and gave me a credit for. I already had custom wheels and tires waiting for the truck, so I didn't need them.
And automakers have been selling performance cars "bodies in white" for years, which means they come with a chassis, body and drivetrain but no interior, air bags or other accesories. The cars are meant for racing, so they come stripped. Google 'mustang "bodies in white" ' for more information.
And I agree that a PC maker is not going to offer the product in a store without an operating system. As a business owner that has fought with Vista since it came out, I wish I had bought PCs without bundled software, and just a stripped version of XP. But that belongs in another thread.
I've read many arguments related to problems about software and hardware compatibility related to Microsoft Windows Vista.
I was told about Brett Tabke's problem when he recently bought a brand new laptop with Windows Vista and had to go back to Windows XP.
Hey guys, you're supposed to be technically savyy. However, because of your fanatical OS preferences, you act 99% irrational.
There is sofware and hardware that has properly passed Microsoft's certification as Windows Vista compatible.
Hence, it's YOUR responsibility to find out if your OUTDATED software and hardware works with Windows Vista.
Do your research work and stop whining!
OK, back to the French court fiasco...
It's not right in all cases. It's not even right in most cases. But chopping tied selling like this is right when the consumer is given substantially no choice.
P.S. Citing companies like 'HP' aren't exactly examples of widespread choice :).
If you go to a bank to get a mortgage, and they force you to buy life insurance or else no mortgage, is that free market?
That's a bad analogy, because the mortgage works without life insurance. A computer, on the other hand, is incomplete and won't function without an operating system. Without an OS, a computer is just an unfinished OEM product.
A computer, on the other hand, is incomplete and won't function without an operating system
Although when I had an Acer laptop, the battery failed after 6 months. They said it was an 'accessory' and wouldn't give me a warranty replacement. I argued that a laptop wouldn't be portable without one, hence was a requirement but they were having none of it.
As 3 of 4 laptops from the same batch had similar faults, I now judge Acer to be of poor quality and bad service, I wouldn't recommend one to my enemies.
But that said..... on with the legal stuff....
As 3 of 4 laptops from the same batch had similar faults, I now judge Acer to be of poor quality and bad service, I wouldn't recommend one to my enemies.
Maybe the French judge owned an Acer from the same batch? :-)
Maybe the French judge owned an Acer from the same batch? :-)
LOL!
If you go to a bank to get a mortgage, and they force you to buy life insurance or else no mortgage, is that free market?
The reason for the life insurance is so that if you die, you're house gets paid for, and your relatives aren't then stuck with the cost of it.
So it's for the benefit of your family, not the bank, and is a tiny cost on top of the actual mortgage anyway.
The reason for the life insurance is so that if you die, you're house gets paid for, and your relatives aren't then stuck with the cost of it.
But you might have enough cash or stock or used computers with bundled OSs so your heirs can pay back the mortgage any time they want. The insurance is something you might not need need but have to buy anyway. The insurance isn't designed to help a customer but the vendor.
you might not need need but have to buy anyway
I believe it comes 'highly recommended' but not required. Not bought a house for a while, so I can't really comment definitively.
yes so the cost of a pc will go up its subsidized by the railware that dell and teh like put on it.
presumably this will aply to apple and thing's like phones then.
I can see IBM loving this I want a z9000 that runs windows server please and zut alors Group Bull would have to offer MVS, os10 on their mainframes.
Cue rioting French workers
"Bring on naked PCs, says think tank" at [news.zdnet.com...]
I wonder how much money is IBM pouring into the Globalisation Institute [ [globalisation.eu...] ].
Read Unbundling Microsoft Windows by Alex Singleton at [globalisation.eu...] .
Looking forward to see how this new tactic ends.
Reminds me of 1999's Windows Refund Day [ [nytimes.com...] ] with better PR.
The reason for the life insurance is so that if you die, you're house gets paid for, and your relatives aren't then stuck with the cost of it.So it's for the benefit of your family, not the bank, and is a tiny cost on top of the actual mortgage anyway.
You mean when I die, my relatives have to pay off my debt? Woohoo. I'm going on a spending spree! :)
Woohoo. I'm going on a spending spree
I believe that credit cards offer payment protection which offers the same.
You can go on a spree, but I guess you would still suffer the consequences while you were alive, which I hope for your sake is longer than next week! ;)
Of course, you could rack up 15k then go for an IVA like thousands of other incompetent losers.
