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Could have implications?
(312 euros = £220 = $440)
[edited by: BeeDeeDubbleU at 7:42 am (utc) on Sep. 27, 2007]
Reading between the lines, it's clear that one sales clerk jumped the guy and held him down while another swiped is credit card for the purchase of the laptop. If you think this behavior isn't commonplace, you've not shopped at a big box computer retailer lately.
In all seriousness, the only reason this ruling makes any sense is as a result of MS's monopoly. Without the monopoly, gov't should keep it's nose out. I think in this case though, they're sending a message to MS or trying to break the stranglehold they have on new computer sales.
Not necessarily. If a desktop or laptop does not come with an OS, manufacturers will have to consider hardware compatibility across different platforms. Purchasing components for Windows compatibility only is the least expensive. If you add Linux (or other *nix) compatibility to the mix, the cost to sourcing parts just went up. This leads to increased production cost which translates to higher retail prices.
I don't know how much OEM pay for a license, but the savings may be shorted lived after manufacturers make the hardware adjustments.
If you want all machines to easily communicate with one another, there has to be a common ground. Granted, that is MS right now (and I am no way defending them), but unless someone comes up with a better option, one that can be seamlessly integrated across the world (remember, this is not just a French problem) live with it!
Marshall
If it's the cheapest, why do you care if it comes with software? If you're such a tightarse why not just sell the spare license sticker?
1. Perhaps because it would be EVEN CHEAPER if Dell didn't have to pay Microsoft for the Vista licence? If I'm looking for a very basic system at a cheap price then just perhaps Ubuntu and OpenOffice would be good fit?
2. Perhaps because I already own a copy of Windows and in several (non-US) jurisdictions it's entirely legal to transfer an existing Windows licence over to a new PC?
If you want all machines to easily communicate with one another, there has to be a common ground
<boggle> Ever heard of the Internet? It's one of those "common ground" things you're talking about... and from what I've heard it appears you don't need own a copy of Windows to use it :-)
I seem to recall reading that most cable set-top boxes use Linux. Sounds like a monopoly to me.
The majority of road users drive cars. Is that a monopoly? There are many linux distributions out there competing with each other. If you think competition between them isn't healthy then start your own distro! All the stuff you need is available at no cost, you just have to come up with something people will want...
2. Perhaps because I already own a copy of Windows and in several (non-US) jurisdictions it's entirely legal to transfer an existing Windows licence over to a new PC?
Last I knew it was legal in the US as long as you only have it installed on one PC at a time. Has this changed?
Last I knew it was legal in the US as long as you only have it installed on one PC at a time. Has this changed?
Nope!
Marshall
If this is true why is it that Dell's cheapest home desktop PC (from where I'm standing this is the Inspiron 531 DT) comes bundled with Windows Vista Home Basic and it's impossible to remove Vista from this system? The only options on Dell's "customise" page are to buy an even more expensive version of Vista.
because dell sucks.
because all major PC stores suck up to M$
because Bestseller #2 on my favorite build-to-order PC online store right now is "Winwods XP Pro". Nobody wants crappy Vista, except it is being shoved down Joe Public's throat.
Must be that the planets aligned just right to bring stupid lawsuits and idiot judges all together in perfect harmony.
What's next?
Sue Apple because your MacBook comes bundled with OS X?
Sue because the PDA has Windows CE installed instead of Palm OS?
Sue Panasonic because the TV has 3 NON-HDMI inputs and I don't need NON-HDMI inputs as all of my gear is state-of-the-art and supports HDMI?
It's called BUNDLED, aka "COMES WITH"...
The consumer had the right to either a) buy the bundle or b) not buy the bundle and Acer isn't required to sell a laptop that isn't already pre-loaded with software.
Modern computers these days are kind of like an appliance and it reduces the supports costs and enhances the customer experience to just have it turn on and run properly the first time you use it.
Should people that want to use Linux have to pay for Windows?
Of course not, but don't be surprised if they charge MORE for those machines without the Windows bundle as the special handling, testing and tracking outside of the normal mass production isn't as cost effective. I'll hazard a guess that paying the small amount of the lawsuit judgment was more cost effective for Acer than offering a machine without Windows bundled for the handful of nerds that don't represent the 99.99999% mainstream buying consumers.
1966 May 21 - Computers Denied to France by US - The State department said that the US had refused to issue an export license for "high-performance" computers needed by France in its nuclear weapons program.
1966 October 22 - US to Drop Ban on Sale of Computers to France
1966 November 8 - Computers for France - The Control Data Corporation received an export license to ship a Control Data-6600 to the French Power Bureau of Paris.
1967 April 13 - France Entering Computer Battle - France started an all-French company to compete as a first step in the government's "Plan Calcul" or "Operation Computer". At the time, the computer industry in France was predominantly American with <b>IBM-France</b> and Bull-General Electric as the major players.
1968 March 30 - France is Alarmed Over the Inroads of US Computers - Le Monde wrote "Isolated efforts of one firm or country have no chance of breaking the American grip."
1975 May 18 - France Again Sets Forth to Conquer Computers - Compagnie Internationale por l'Informatique started to merge with Honeywell Bull Company. The objective was to counter the influence of <b>IBM</b> which dominated the markets in France, Europe, the United States and the world.
1981 August 12 - Personal Computer Announced by IBM
1983 January 19 - IBM Markets PC in Europe - The PC so far had been sold only in the US and Canada. The IBM PC would be made available in Europe, including Austria, Belgium, Denmark, France Germany, Ireland, Italy, the Netherlands, Norway, Spain, Sweden, Switzerland and the UK.
1983 August 15 - IBM's PC Spawns an Industry - IBM created the so-called PC-compatible computer market, products that work with, look like, or plug into the desktop IBM computer. Compaq Computer Corp., which had zero sales in 1982, is expected to reach $100 million in sales in the first year of production.
1986 July 28 - The PC Wars: IBM vs. the Clones - The PC has become a generic product that anybody with a few hundred dollars and some electronics knowhow can assemble. According to Dataquest, approximately 3.6 million clones will invade the world market in 1986. In other words, that's a million more PCs than IBM could sell.
1986 August 29 - Computer Firms Ahead of IBM In 386 Machines - Corvus Systems Inc. had begun shipments of its Series 386. Compaq Computer Corp. is expected to introduce a line of PCs based on the 386 chip at a Sept. 9 press conference.
1988 September 13 - PC Industry Announce EISA: New 32-bit bus
1991 May 16 - PC Firms Are Roiled By Changes as Clones Gain on Brand Names - Compaq disclosed that it expects second-quarter sales to drop a surprising 15%. However, sales are booming at clone makers such as AST Research and Dell Computer.
1991 October 5 - Free minix-like kernel sources for 386-AT - [groups.google.com...]
1992 January 18 - IBM Had $2.8 Billion Loss - Its First - in '91 -
1993 July 27 - Microsoft Releases Windows NT and Advanced Server to Manufacturing
1995 November - What happens when designers get a chance to build a second OS? - "Dave Cutler was the lead architect on Digital Equipment Corp.'s VMS, the operating system for minicomputers. Microsoft asked him to create Windows NT." [byte.com...]
We're not talking about a Monopoly here, we're talking about choices and market forces. IF there was a big enough market for PC's without operating systmes it would exist. Of course that same PC would have absolutely no technical support for software, only hardware replacements. There is NOTHING to stop ANYONE from entering this business.
It took me less than 2 minutes to find (and make sure it was true) a company selling PCs without any operating sytem (Vista was a $89 option - so you can imagine their cost is less). So please don't anyone continue to spew this nonsense about not having a choice.
This is the French government telling a manufacturer what they can and cannot sell - we're all in trouble if this attitude spreads.
[edited by: BillyS at 12:11 am (utc) on Sep. 28, 2007]
"Sometimes you don't even have to look, to know who wrote a post.
"It's the WW's own Microsoft sock puppet. Say hi to Ballmer for us, and watch out for the chairs!"
I don't work for Microsoft. I only use Microsoft products. Sometimes I test and use other non-Microsoft products as part of my Web businesses.
We're not talking about a Monopoly here, we're talking about choices and market forces. IF there was a big enough market for PC's without operating systmes it would exist.
There is also a twofold deceit of customers:
1) Because of the widespread bundling, people think Windows is essentially free. People here may know different, and ordinary consumer does not
2) MS pays PC manufacturers to "recommend" Windows ("co-marketing"). This again creates a false perception that only Windows will work on mnay PCs.
It is very easy for the pro MS crowd to claim that ordinary consumers all want Windows because they buy it. No, they buy it because of the way the market is rigged. If the market was truly competitive, MS's market share would plummet.
We're not talking about a Monopoly here, we're talking about choices and market forces. IF there was a big enough market for PC's without operating systmes it would exist. Of course that same PC would have absolutely no technical support for software, only hardware replacements. There is NOTHING to stop ANYONE from entering this business.
Do you really believe this? Don't you think there's incentives for hardware manufacturerers to put W on all their machines?
Would the big hardware manufacturers dare risk losing 90% of their revenue just to sell a couple of "free-OS" PCs?
- Are Microsoft selling their bundled OEM copies at a loss? If so then there are strict laws against it.
- If they aren't selling at a loss, then the massive price jump for retail versions shows they are abusing their monopoly.
As with many things, you can't have it both ways. The Windows OS has a certain licensed value. Now, which version (OEM or retail) is it which is being sold above or below fair value by this monopoly?
Last I knew it was legal in the US as long as you only have it installed on one PC at a time. Has this changed?
Nope!Marshall
I was actually thinking of OEM licences. Can you legally transfer these in the USA now?
I was actually thinking of OEM licences. Can you legally transfer these in the USA now
No. Not in any country, it's against the OEM license agreement, that's the one that says you got it dirt cheap anyway 'cos you bought it with a cheap PC. That's why the number is firmly stuck to the PC, and thanks to the tear strips almost destroys itself completely when you try to coax it off.
At some point I'm sure you could have realised they don't want you to do that.
On the other hand, if you buy full retail you also buy the privilege to install it wherever you want.
(cough) Tightarse
This thread is now clearly split between......
People who use Linux and think they should get everything cheaper, when without Microsoft's cheap bundled software, manufacturers wouldn't sell as much and so everything would actually be more expensive.
People who don't and are happy to enjoy the fact that PC's are now cheaper, and the software comes free.
[edited by: jatar_k at 7:35 pm (utc) on Sep. 28, 2007]
[edit reason] be nice [/edit]
...not like the US where you must accept the seller's abuses.
The way to refuse a sellers abuse is quite simple: Don't Buy. This works in the US, and should work in France.
This is an abuse, because they forced the buyer to buy other products in order to buy the product he actually wanted.
Um, No. He wasn't forced to buy anything. What he DID buy, was a product that he DIDN'T want. The gymnastic contortions required to present the situation as anything other than a whining, falsely entitled consumer are beyond the bounds of reasonable empathy.
That a French Judge sided with this idiot, says a great deal about the poor state of French law-if indeed his ruling could be supported by French law.
Nothing against France in general. Fantastic food.
- Are Microsoft selling their bundled OEM copies at a loss? If so then there are strict laws against it.
If they were selling it a loss, they'd be broke by now (since most operating systems are sold with computers).
- If they aren't selling at a loss, then the massive price jump for retail versions shows they are abusing their monopoly.
Apple sells Mac OS X Tiger at a retail price of $129 but throws it in free with a Mac. That's an even bigger retail-version price jump. :-)
This is an abuse, because they forced the buyer to buy other products in order to buy the product he actually wanted.
The computer bundle WAS the product, he opted to buy it.
That's not abuse, it's called a CHOICE, you can buy it or buy something else.
Cars in the US now tend to include either XM or Sirius satellite radio built into the car and I'm a Sirius customer. If I buy a car with XM built into the car it's a choice as I can opt to buy a different car with Sirius.
However, I can plug a Sirius into the car pre-loaded with XM just like you can reload Linux into a PC bundled with Windows.
Oh please, 90% of their revenue. Oh, you're saying that MS would stop shipping their software to Dell and Gateway if they started offering competing products like or Linx - oops they already do. Wait, what are you saying?
There is at least one other case like this in the pipeline.
No. Not in any country, it's against the OEM license agreement...
Ah yes, the famed Microsoft license agreement.
In some non-US jurisdictions local consumer protection legislation trumps clauses in Microsoft's shrink-wrap licence agreement.... so selling OEM software that you've legally purchased may well be legal in the EU.
Plenty of EU suppliers will sell you OEM software as long as you purchase it with hardware (such as buying it with a computer mouse). I've done this several times over the years and it's a great way to purchase OEM software without buying a new PC. Oh, and the software isn't locked to any particular BIOS so you can sell it on when you're done with it :-)
Ignoring local legislation seems to be somethat that Microsoft keeps doing and from what we read in the news it's a costly mistake.
[edited by: lawman at 8:53 pm (utc) on Sep. 28, 2007]
[edit reason] delink search terms [/edit]
That's not abuse, it's called a CHOICE, you can buy it or buy something else.
Well, I strolled around 3 superstores in the US lately and 2 in Europe. I didn't see a single notebook or desktop computer without an operating system. That means that a student who needs a computer with e.g. Linux for whatever reason can't buy one. He has to buy one with an OS and get rid of the OS.
Im sorry but you only make sense as a Linux zealot.
However, you make absolutely no sense as the average customer who wants to buy a brand new computer equipped with the latest gadgets and software.
Have you heard of a Web site named Ebay? It's the appropriate place where to buy a laptop or PC without an operating system.
