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Dave
Also, I notice that overture seems to convert better for some merchants, so you might even pay over that $0.23 and still make profit.
The question is why not?
I see your point about the difference, however as any campaign manager will tell you that both have their benefits and weaknesses.
There are very few high quality keywords out there at the minimum rates, so the ultimate goal is to have a fair spread and bringing the overall CPC rate as low as possible.
I know people bidding $5,00 per click and also $0.10 per click in same campaign in order to get the best traffic at a low overall CPC rate.
Shak
Most of the ads that bring in the revenue are higher than the minum. So 10c vs 5c is not really important.
Yes but this applies as much to Overture as it does to Google.
But if let's say you can pay for some keyword $0.23 and make profit, why not pay the same $0.23 on overture and extend your reach?
All that would do is bring in x people from Overture and x from Google. As Google gets SO MUCH more traffic, I have found you can pay half the amount on Google and bring in same amount of traffic for what cost double on Overture.
Also, I notice that overture seems to convert better for some merchants, so you might even pay over that $0.23 and still make profit.
Arrh now that would warrant paying more. However, I have never seen this to be the case though. Is there any proof of this?
The question is why not?
Because it will cost you twice as much for the same amount of traffic.
There are very few high quality keywords out there at the minimum rates, so the ultimate goal is to have a fair spread and bringing the overall CPC rate as low as possible.
Yes I know, I only use the min so as to compare apples with apples. Let's say 'widgets' costs $1.00 for top spot on Overture. The same keyword costs $2.00 on Google for top spot. You are willing to budget $100.00 per day for either ad. You will of course get 100 clicks from Overture and only 50 from Google. BUT, why not pay only 50c on Google (and of course get a lower spot), set your amount per day to $100.00 and get 200 clicks. It works for me, you may not get the full 200 but you WILL get more than 100 simply because of the extra traffic Google gets.
The ONLY thing that would make Oveture (and others) worth it would be if there were proof that those that click ads on Overture spend more than those that click ads on Google.
All this aside, the flexibility and options on Google make it soooo much better than any other PPC I have seen or used.
Dave
Use BOTH and therefore allowing Google to subsidise your OV spend if its twice as much, and overall keeping your global CPC low.
very hard to measure an overall picture unless you do it the whole of your advertsing route...
Shak
Use BOTH and therefore allowing Google to subsidise your OV spend if its twice as much, and overall keeping your global CPC low.
But why? If I am going to re-invest the savings back into PPC, why not re-invest it back into with Google and get more clicks?
Dave
I do a lot of PPC advertising and I have an account open with every major PPC search engine out there.
What matters, at the end of the day is if my cost per lead for every one of those individual SE's stays within my acceptable range.
I mean, yea some engines cost more than others due to bid prices and/or quality of traffic but if the final cost per lead is within my range, it's all gravy. The more incoming revenue the better. Some SEs just have better margins.
But that is how it works for my market and is most definitely not applicable to others.
If you are biding for "red wooden widgets" at $0.45 on adwords and you are making profit - why not also bid for that keyword on overture?
If you just bid for "wooden widgets" or "widgets" - you'll get more clicks, but your ROI will become negative.
So what do you do? - You try to expand your reach while maintaining targeting.
...unlimited traffic resources for any given narrow keyword?
That's always been the crux of the matter for the campaigns I work with. If could only get my Google ROI with my Overture level of traffic on some words, I'd be a happy little pig. I have yet to run into the opposite situation, where Overture costs are lower.
The ONLY thing that would make Oveture (and others) worth it ...
For you! ;)
If could only get my Google ROI with my Overture level of traffic on some words, I'd be a happy little pig.
Oink oink! (That's "me, too!")
If you only have to spend a $1.00 to make a $1.20 on Google and $1.10 for a $1.20 from Overture....
The other minor PPC engines will charge MUCH less for top spot on any keyword, but they do not have the traffic so have little choice. I would be suprised if Overture gets more traffic than Google on any search term or phrase.
Dave
If you only have to spend a $1.00 to make a $1.20 on Google and $1.10 for a $1.20 from Overture....
That's EXACTLY the point!
If you are grabbing all traffic from adwords that you can convert and make profit, what do you do after that?
Also buy on overture, even if your profit margin is smaller or
just say,"Nah I'm making enough money, I don't want to make more"?
RE: If you are grabbing all traffic from adwords that you can convert and make profit, what do you do after that?
Because of the sheer amount of searches Google generates I find it hard to reach that point. Besides, if I have reached that point it seems silly to pay Overture a $1.10 for a return of $1.20 when I can go to, say 5 or 6 smaller PPC, and pay only 10c.
As I keep saying, If someone can *prove* that Overture sufers generate better ROI than I can see why someone would pay the extra. I have yet to see any proof and I'm not even sure how one would prove it?
Dave
If someone can *prove* that Overture sufers generate better ROI than I can see why someone would pay the extra. I have yet to see any proof and I'm not even sure how one would prove it?
Easy to prove.
If you sell merchandise: For each individual keyword, look and see how much the average customer spend is on your site for Google vs. Overture - control for cost of keyword.
If you have a product with regular recurring revenue: For each individual keyword, look and see the average lifetime value of a customer on your site for Google vs. Overture - control for cost of keyword.
A simple math problem that will tell you exactly what you need to know.
However, that nasty little hook-up between Overture and Gator does cramp OV's potential for some of my clients who simply will NOT appear on a Gator pop-up.
Overture is reaching a different slice of the web
Probably true, but where is the proof that the Overture "slice of the web" yields a better return?
RE: Easy to prove.
Is it? How does one track the buyer from start (google/overture) to end (payment confirmation click)?
Dave
If that's how your clients feel about Overture/Gator, encourage them to make sure they actually TELL Overture, don't just cut back their ad spend or leave without saying why.
Because of the sheer amount of searches Google generates I find it hard to reach that point.
I have all my campaigns set to $50k/day limit, and yet I don't spend even a tiny fraction of that.
Why? - Well, Google's traffic is limited. If you find it hard to believe - spend a few months promoting different things and you'll see for yourself.
If you can't bid higher and you can't use broader terms, then there is a limit on the amount of traffic you can get from AdWords.
As I keep saying, If someone can *prove* that Overture sufers generate better ROI than I can see why someone would pay the extra. I have yet to see any proof and I'm not even sure how one would prove it?
Well, I have a store and I advertise on Overture as well as AdWords. Overture traffic is good. Some of the keywords perform better on overture than on AdWords.
Prove it? - Did you want my bank statements? What about the keys to my apartment?
Do you think it's our job here to prove anything to you or to convince you to use some service?
If you don't get it then you don't get it. Live in pease... and don't use Overture :)
Is it? How does one track the buyer from start (google/overture) to end (payment confirmation click)?
Got milk?
Do you think it's our job here to prove anything to you or to convince you to use some service?
Why the nasty tone? I thought this forum was here to exchange thoughts and ideas?
So anyone care to tell me how one tracks a buyer from start to end? It is a genuine and sincere question.
Dave
Why the nasty tone?
So anyone care to tell me how one tracks a buyer from start to end? It is a genuine and sincere question.
Use cookies.
Mostly because people tell you one thing and you discard it and keep pushing your own line over and over.
...and there was silly me thinking you were just a rude pig. My "own line" is "how does one proove that the Overture gives a better ROI?"
use cookies
oink oink! What a nice helpful little boy you are. You are only proving that *you* have no idea.
Surely there is someone who is willing to help answer my question? I ask the question because I have no idea of the answer.
Dave
I use cookies plus a tracking query string, since most Overture hits do not come from Overture but from somewhere on their network. Same with AdWords. So the visitor's click doesn't just ask for page.html, they come to page.html?src=overture
Any page visits with that query string get a specific cookie set -- which can also reference the particular keyword if desired. At every purchase we also look for a cookie and if it's there, then we make a record on the server of which campaign and keyword are involved.
So you've got an end to end data trail, somewhat compromised because not everyone accepts cookies, and some may dump cookies and then come back later to buy from a bookmark.
So the ROI you can calculate on your spend at Overture or Google this way will be close to accurate, and probably just a touch lower than it really is.
If that's how your clients feel about Overture/Gator, encourage them to make sure they actually TELL Overture...
We have, and I do. There's no way I want to just disappear from Overture. I've been happy using their services since the early GoTo.com days and this Gator thing is totally out of line. It may be OK for some businesses, but Overture/Yahoo -- give us a chance to opt-out, please.
<rant class="offtopic">
I have stopped many campaigns totalling tens of thousands of dollars monthly because of the required use of Gator. Maybe that's not so much money in the big picture, but there are lots more like me.
I actually want the rest of the Overture network. But I never signed up to be part of a browser hijack -- and for many of my clients, that's a terrible violation. The beauty of web marketing is when it is based on PERMISSION, not on interruption or stealth. There is such a thing as damaging your brand through lousy marketing practices.
</rant>
So anyone care to tell me how one tracks a buyer from start to end? It is a genuine and sincere question
Here is one way ...
1. Use tracking codes on the end of your URLs when bidding on individual keywords. e.g. ...
www.domain.com?src=overture&kw=keyword_phrase
2. Deliver each visitor that buys online to a "thanks for the sale" page.
3. Use a log analysis package that will let you view paths visitors take through your site. This will allow you to see how many people from each source/keyword combination end up at the "thanks for the sale" page.
There are online services kicking around that let you do same kind of thing. You put special codes on your sales and thankyou pages to allow different actions to be tracked.
Hope this helps ...
Dave
At a conference I met one person who managed a major account - they were spending well into 6 figures per month on Overture and had been doing so for over a year. They also did Google, but their figures left no doubt that Overture was a buy that paid off for THEM.
The thing is, it may cost you more, but if you are still making profit, and if that's profit you would otherwise see, then certainly it's worthwhile.
I have not ever run a campaign on either service that didn't have a good enough ROI to justify continuing the spend. Sometimes it takes some tweking to get it happening correctly, but the profits are there for the taking.
The only time things become problematic is when more than three businesses get into a bidding war on Overture. Then you just have to play it smart for a while -- bottom feeding can generate really great ROI as a percentage, but not so much volume.
However, I have had one campaign that maximized profits at position #5 on Overture. This was the factor that made the difference -- the bottom of the SERP on Yahoo can bring in some traffic that is very discriminating and converts at an astounding percentage sometimes.
And I would never have found that out if three competitors hadn't been bidding things through the roof. (strum, strum, strum) You gotta know when to hold 'em, know when to fold 'em...
