Meta Tags, Short Index Page and Frames

A Far from Perfect Search Engine Site I Think

[stuart]

After 6 months trying to fathom SE's I have learnt more in 3 days (and nights!) from this Forum and SEW - Thanks to you all. I hope you dont mind me putting these questions forward. Two of my dilemas are:

A short flash animation as an Index (intro) page where I have placed meta tags - Any ideas how to make this page more search engine friendly (ie. hidden text type tactics) ?

The rest of the site has a permanent static frame at the top (linking to the main parts of the site) and all the pages sit/scroll behind it - I'd like to create portal pages to submit to the SE's but this top frame works well in the site and the portal pages themselves are seperate and no use without the top frame ?

Any ideas would be much appreciated.

[Hope]

You probably won't like the advice I have.

Dump the frames!!!!! Sorry to say it, but frames are terrible for what you are wanting. I would suggest adding the navigation bar to the top of each page instead of using frames. SE hate frames. Many users hate frames.

obvious typo fixed -rcj

Edited by: rcjordan

[Dave Stewart]

Stuart,

I agree totally with Hope. You're going to have to bag the frames.

Plus more bad news: Do you HAVE to have the flash? The index page (home page, root page) will normally get more weight because it's the first page. If you don't have text on this page, you're missing a great opportunity for ranking. At the very least, I would add text below the flash file. At bestm get rid of it.

[stuart]

I knew you'd say that! Thanks very much though. I'm gutted, the flash index page gives visitors (uhm) the impression we want and the top frame keeps the logo and navigation right there. I'll sacrifice the frame but how could I get some invisible text (relevant to my meta tags) on the index page - Hidden text in a table with a background image (small single colour gif same colour as text) I'm really confused !!

[rcjordan]

Stuart, welcome to WmW. Google will index the content in the <NOFRAMES> section extremely well. Other SEs will, too, though perhaps not quite as well.

[stuart]

rjc - so I can keep this top frame just work the other pages into the <noframes> tag somehow (I am a fresher !). Or is it really better to do away with the 'frame' and add its content to every page.

[stuart]

Found another thread covering this so I'm studying there - thanks for everyones help.

[rcjordan]

>work the other pages into the <noframes>
Yes. Think of the noframes section as a large meta-tag, though I encourage a more 'content-like' format.

I'll send an url via StickyMail so you can view source.

[stcrim]

stuart,

Flash is the kiss of death for a home page as it relates to search engines. There are work-arounds, but your home page is the most important page you have. If you can't live without a flash intro, do it in a java popup.

Flash sites are becoming very popular with automobile dealers. I can show you case after case where once they put up a Flash home page their sites dropped from spidering SE's.

Don't know how Yahoo feels about Flash, but based on what they like (Fast sites, contact info on home page, etc) - I'd guess Flash is problematic there too...

Use Flash only in places where you don't care if it gets indexed or not...

[rcjordan]

Steve, what do you think about putting flash in a frame and using noframes? I can see that as at least containing the seo damage brought on by flash. In fact, given the success of noframes, I'd almost recommend framing a flash index on a site that didn't use frames anywhere else as a way to inject some optimization techniques.

[stcrim]

RC,

That sure might be a work-around, but when getting indexed counts, keep flash on the fence.

I think a simple link to a flash page is a great answer, then if someone wants to see it, they can. By linking to a Flash page you don't kill the SE spiders and you don't drive your visitors off.

Walt Disney perfected what Flash is bring to the table more than 50 years ago. But, Mickey never killed spiders... (or did I miss that one?)

Don't get me wrong, I think Flash is a nice product for some things - the home page just isn't one of them.

[eljefe3]

Steve,

Am I missing something here? Is having flash in a frame any different than having a regular page in a frame? If not, than by filling in the noframes content with the proper information, it should rank well according to RC's research.

[tedster]

>>Am I missing something here? Is having flash in a frame any different than having a regular page in a frame?<<

Yes, since Flash content is already unreadable to the SEs. If you must stay with Flash, the frame brings you visibility on several search engines, but it' still not likely to rival what you could get with a non-Flash page.

I have seen some Flash sites that get decent to excellent listings with this technique. It's good insurance, IMO, that the noframes tag doesn't stray too far from being a straight version of the Flash content -- essentially the same words and links.

stuart:
>>...the top frame keeps the logo and navigation right there. I'll sacrifice the frame...<<

You'll be glad you made the sacrifice -- I was in your spot not too long ago. The best thing I ever did for that site was get rid of frames. My client had all the standard reasons for wanting frames -- especially keeping the navigation and branding available.

But besides the search engines, there's another big downside to frames. The visitors who like your site the most can't bookmark the specific page they want to return to. Frames force your BEST prospects to navigate your material over and over again, and this generates resentment on your A list.

When we dropped frames, my client got several thank yous for making the site EASIER to use, page views per visitor nearly doubled, and sales shot up. So much for frames making a site more user-friendly.

[tigger]

stcrim

You said about Yahoo and the possibility of them not being to keen on flash, have you any evidence of this ? or has anyone else had a site refussed due to flash.

the reason I ask this is for my sins I'm building a complete site using flash and an alternative non flash site, I will be using doorways to promite it, but my client has ask specifly to be in yahoo and is happy to use business express

Obviously as yahoo is a directory the doorways will not come into focus, but I'm a little worried now if the flash site is a huge can of worms waiting to be opened. any thoughts

Stuart . I would be interested to see your opening page as I'm always interested in seeing other peoples work with flash as I'm always after a bit of inspiration :)

thanks

[stcrim]

tigger first - eljefe3 second,

tigger,

I would check into it carefully before submitting it to yahoo. Remember, they do what they want to. Your server can be having a glitch at that moment and that's enough to keep you from getting listed. I don't know that yahoo has an issue with Flash sites - but I do know they have an issue with slow sites. And, most Flash Sites equate into slow sites.

Better to be safe than sorry.

eljefe3,

Not all SE's are as thrilled with noframes tags as Google and to a directory in makes no difference (unless thay catch those noframes tags and consider the content to be spam). All I'm saying is, if it's important to get indexed and found let the Flash be an option not the main way in...