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[edited by: caveman at 5:08 pm (utc) on Nov. 30, 2006]
Having said that, the best SEO's can usually take a site that's healthy enough to be in positions 9-20 and take it to somewhere near the top of most SERP's.
You have to remember that we aren't dealing in small scale statitistics, heck we aren't even dealing in mob statistics ('we know that if we show a brochure to 1000 people N% will buy an item'), we are dealing with the whim of Google - we are entirely at their mercy.
Do you still hope that we will guarantee our work?
We don't like it either.
We need someone to take us o 1-3...I cant belive its " unethical" to promise to deliver... What other business operates that way?
Its like asking a customer to " just trust us" ..." we'll deliver, but, we cant, or refuse to guarantee the outcome".
As implied above, anyone who guarantees or promises a top ranking is lying and should not be trusted. How can I promise a client something that I cannot completely control? Again, as noted, the algo's change constantly, especially G's. Moreover, if your site is at spot 13 and ever site above you hires or contracts a top SEO, you may never get higher, if for example some or all sites above you are working equally hard to stay there. (That is rarely the case; I'm simply saying that you cannot control the algo's and you cannot control competition, and it's therefore folly to think you can completely control rankings.)
Yes the best SEO's are the ones who most likely can get you to or near the top, but the best SEO's virtually never guarantee top rankings because they're smart enough to know no such guarantee is meaningful. And knowing that, promising it is, yes, very unethical. In fact, I've passed on a few very well paying clients because they insisted on such a guarantee, which told me all I needed to know about them. I prefer to work with wiser people than that. ;-)
What I'm looking for is pay for performance..like a DH making an extra 2 mill. if he hits 40 HRs....
I also feel it's unwise for a client to push an SEO in this direction. Conceivably, the SEO, operating on the kind of pay-for-ranking model you suggest, might resort to tactics that put the client's domain at risk of penalization.
Additionally, there are delay factors (at least on Google and Yahoo) that can make it difficult to correlate either rankings or penalties with the actions of a specific SEO at a specific time.
A good SEO should be able to tell you how tough it might be to beat a competitor's present situation. It's impossible, though, to comment on a competitor's future situation, with a future algorithm.
I've also found that in the best optimizing situations, the SEO is working with the client, and how well the client will perform in that partnership is something the SEO also cannot predict.
But if the rankings don't improve, the SEO doesn't get any compensation, or minimal compensation, depending upon how exactly the agreement is structured.
Improved rankings are one way to measure success but I think it's even more important to measure overall growth in traffic from the search engines. If the SEO does enough things well (not easy in a corporate environment sometimes!), the site will gain new traffic from lots of searches besides the main target terms. A savvy agreement should recognize and reward that, no matter what the ranking happens to be for any particular trophy term.
Buckworks,
Yes ,indeed ,increased traffic is the ultimate goal of course....
All
So are you saying that any "professional and ethical" seo would not take an opportunity to make X by providing a measurable Y over a period of time? or just that its not normally how its done by the "professional and ethical" majority...
As someone who not only sells services but buys them, I far prefer to work with service providers who are straight with me, and make realistic promises. The wisest clients understand that too. Which is what helps them attract the best SEO's, who turn down far more queries than they take.
As for opportunities to make X, there are several models, plus variations. Some deals are done by project. Some by the hour/day/week/month. And some on a piece of the upside, which is the model closest to a guarantee, since this approach is at times handled with no base payment guaranteed to the SEO.
The closest thing to a guarantee is likely to come from paid results (PPC). Even then beware as some sectors of keyphrases are pretty much full of well-established advertisers.
Ivan Jimenez said it best recently in the LED:
First things first, you didn't get anyone results. The work you did along with many, many other factors including (but not limited to) design, popularity, freshness of content and non-SEO source code affected the way search engines "viewed" the sites but it was they (the search engines) that rank websites. Your first step is to fully understand this.This will help you not only in this case, but in dealing with past, existing and future clients -- many seem to think SEO companies have a magic button that they can press to make their websites shoot to the top of the SERP, clearing this misconception will make you a happier, more stress-free marketer!
I couldn't agree more. Once that's established, then you can talk about pricing models. And there are lots of options - profit share, PPC account management, one-time fees, recurring fees.
I'm actually finding quite a few of the techniques utilized...they're all over delicious....The social netwroking sites really seem to add something to PR or trust or what not...
I already know I'm going to have to tackle this myself, fortunately WW has volumes of information!
This is the situation SEOs find themselves in, in attempting to influence the engines.
What I'm looking for is pay for performance..like a DH making an extra 2 mill. if he hits 40 HRs....
A DH doesn't have offer any guarantees either. There is no way a DH could "guarantee" that he will hit 40 HRs- there are simply too many factors out of his control that could prevent it from happening: all the pitchers he goes up against decide to walk him every time, he breaks his arm in an accident and has to sit out the rest of the season, the players call another strike and end the season early, etc.
Realistically, would you trust anyone who "guarantees" you he will hit 40 HRs? Similarly, are you going to trust a lawyer who "guarantees" you that he will win? If you answer yes to either question, hang on and I'll go find some scumbag batter or lawyer to represent as an agent so I can get a nice cut of your charity money. I'll even throw in a deed to the Brooklyn Bridge- NO EXTRA COST!
[edited by: LifeinAsia at 12:05 am (utc) on Dec. 7, 2006]
Yes, I understand Search engines ultimately decide where you end up, but so does a judge and jury..
....and there are plenty of lawyers who work based on results, having confidence in their ability to influence and deliver...
There are definitely some similarities with that analogy - and Google is judge and jury :-) I don't like working w/ a profit sharing model and in my experience it's pretty rare for SEOs to do that. I do know those who do, but they are more specialized and working with contacts in their market... in other words from developed relationships / partnerships. It works best that way imo since there's a level of trust to make that model work.
You look at the DH based on his past experience and current health. But you know that past performance is no guarantee of future performance.
You look at the lawyer based on his past cases and the current case. But you know that past performance is no guarantee of future performance.
You look at the SEO professional based on his past experience. But you have to accept that past performance is no guarantee of future performance.
I know that select SEO companies bill on results, however I find this dubious. SEO is a dynamic field: algorithms change, competitors compete….there are just too many ongoing factors out there. I have seen too many ‘want to be’ clients that say what amounts to, ‘I’ll pay you when and if I make money.” I’ve also seen clients who were burnt by aggressive/desperate/black hat SEO contractors.
When thinking about paying for SEO think about how you would pay for other service professionals. For example, we often hear of lawyers working on contingency but in reality attorneys only work on contingency when there is a big enough payout possible AND when they are very confident of winning or settling. If an attorney has doubts they will not work on contingency.
I suggest that if you want to hire an SEO plan to pay a retainer upfront and the balance upon completion, or with a similar structured compensation model.
ALSO
Before you sign an SEO contract you should understand--at least in general terms--what types of techniques will be used and how they will be implemented. If you do not have a strong enough grasp to make an informed decision bring the list to this and two or three other forums and ask for opinions. “This is what a prospective consultant wants to do. What do you think?”
Good Luck!
