Forum Moderators: mack
"Speaking to a packed auditorium at Stanford University in Palo Alto, Calif., on May 12, Ballmer trumpeted the ripe opportunities around Microsoft's sprawling business and questioned the ability of Google to maintain its edge. Clearly alluding to Microsoft's key Internet search rival, Ballmer said: "The hottest company right now -- the one nobody thinks can do any wrong -- may just be a one-hit wonder."
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Personally I think G needs to diversify it's revenue source. Right now everything is going great, but if the economy starts to slow, the first thing companies do is cut advertising (and business travel). It happened a few years ago and it will happen again...leaving Google exposed.
Opening: Tired of last years search results?
Fact: Did you know Google suppresses new websites up to a year or more?
Closing Punch: That is valuable information and resources you are missing out on! Get up to date websites, products, information, and answers today with the New MSN Search"
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In my opinion this would mudslinging for sure, but force Google to improve their results in regards to sandbox new sites. Still today this simple fact alone has not made way into the press, much less marketers taking advantage of this issue.
Makes me wonder how well Microsoft knows their competitor.
Look at Altavista, that use to be #1, look what happended in only a few short years.
Look what happened to Instant messengers, remember AIM and ICQ being the major players? Microsoft came in late and guess what, they instantly had a huge IM market share percentage in only two short years.
Remember Microsoft media player? All it did was just played cds, audio files, now the new versions support streaming and all web protocols. Real and Quicktime had a real problem with Media Player.
Also, let us not forget about Micrsoft Treasury. With billions and billions of cash reserve, I believe they reinvest this in other businesses to make more cash. Their treasury alone has more cash than Google.
Google is only worth so much atm because their share price thus their market cap is so huge and damn today it just skyrocketed another $8!
"Microsoft Treasury is in charge of managing the financial assets and the foreign currency exposure of the world’s most successful software company. Microsoft Treasury assets total more than $60 billion dollars and are invested in a wide range of fixed income and equity assets. Due to the continuing success of Microsoft and the resulting growth of assets managed by the treasury, the task to measure and analyze the risks associated with the treasury’s global investment strategy has become a highly formalized and complex process."
Look what happened to Instant messengers, remember AIM and ICQ being the major players? Microsoft came in late and guess what, they instantly had a huge IM market share percentage in only two short years.Remember Microsoft media player? All it did was just played cds, audio files, now the new versions support streaming and all web protocols. Real and Quicktime had a real problem with Media Player.
I can only say that those who laugh off MS should have learned by now. I'm not a gamer, but I remember when everybody was laughing off X-Box stating MS came to fray too late... bet they don't think that now.
Yep, remember Lotus 123, how about dbase, WordPerfect – do any of those ring a bell?
It was almost common knowledge that there wasn't money in search. Google showed MS that there is indeed money to be made - now Microsoft will go after it.
I like competition, makes everyone work a little harder.
Personally, I'd love to have that problem.
My experience on the web has been this. When the tough gets going, the going gets tough. Lay offs, cut backs, offshoring, downsizing...all lead to the biggest increase in ecommerce the web has ever seen. When times were tough, we couldn't keep up with the work here, and had to turn people away. That didn't work, so we raised prices. That didn't work, so we offered less AND raised prices again, all within 6 months.
You need proof. Try reading the eBay stock holders reports for 2000, 2001, 2002. Each year they doubled users, double listings, doubled earnings...or better. At one time I had an article on it, on one of my websites, with the actual figures from the stock report, when I owned ebay stock, and I don't own it now. It was that same time new small business owners, mom and pops, were flooding to the web, trying to offset their losses.
The fact is, if there is a down turn in the economy, and we are actually kicking the R word around, happy times are here again in my book. I have seen it twice, and no doubt will see it many times again.
There is a strategy for riding out a recession, and if you get it down pat it works like a charm. Given the savy thinkers at Google, I'm quite sure they know the plan.
It is called volumn. You sell more for less. You cut the competitions throat, out price them, out service them, increase productivity, give more incentives, and you have all the revenue you need. It is business 101. The worst thing you can do in a recession is cut back. You put your creative thinkers on top, launch some brillant cost effective new plan, add bells and whistles nobody has heard of before, dirt cheap, and walk all over the competition. I have done it, numerous times, and I'm hear to tell you, it works.
This... is where the mom and pops have the edge. They work the hours they want. They have something at stake, they have kids to feed, and they are willing to do what it takes to make it work. They are the creative thinkers, and they are at the top.
The cockiness of MSN, may be a bit premature. In a recession, the biggest entities are more likely to fall, than the mom and pops. Last I looked, MSN was bigger than Yahoo. That was this morning, and I don't think it has changed while I fondled the keys on this board the past 18 hours. You put your money behind the mom and pops, who are starving and desperate, you can't go wrong. They have the will to save the house, the boat, the cottage, the rolex, after big business or civil service gave them the boot.
The web has grown not because of the big boy retailers and manufacturers, history proves that. But, because of the mom and pop home industries, creators, designers, builders, developers, wholesalers, and retailers who came to the web desperate to salvage their life, or at minimum stave off what they saw in their future ... no future at all with corporate greed.
They comprise over 90% of ecommerce, and should never be underestimated. Take a look at the Adwords clients, and who are they? They are primarily mom and pop. Because I have news for you, the last R never really fully recovered in many parts of the country, and the mom and pops, many of them, are still struggling to keep it all together..
I have put my resources behind them thousands of times, and I have never regretted it. On the flip side, during that time, big business has tried to rob me blind, pick my brain and not offer me anything more than a penny for my thoughts. Maybe that is all they are worth. Who knows.
As far as the industry peaking... as long as people like Mr Bill keep offshoring, there will be a line around the block of people trying to get somebody to help them get on the web, and succeed. Mr Bill and his policies, make that a given. The little guy/gal enetwork is now far outpacing the Good Ol Boy network, in numbers, thanks to corporate downsizing.
One thing I learned along time ago... just because a person can program complex data bases, doesn't mean they know anything at all about seo, marketing, or creative marketing driven design composition. Those things displaced engineers need, to get their own corner of the web. They need ads, and they need search engines, just like you and I. What they don't need is IE, OE, and WinXP.
My two cents worth... ok maybe a penny, unless somebody can make change for a copper.
[edited by: Receptional at 3:08 pm (utc) on May 19, 2005]
[edit reason] Sorry - you know I had to do take the link off! :) - Dixon [/edit]
What interests me in this topic is 'what will I have do to in order to make sure my pages are still visible' regardless of who is number one in search. Personally, I don't care who rules search - I do care about being visible where it counts most.
While Microsoft’s history and business ethics have always been questioned, one thing remains a fact… Microsoft has a decent track record of success – especially when it comes down to competition for a niche. This is coming from a Mac Addict by the way and I can’t stand the company.
If people would honestly look at the opportunity presented before us, Microsoft has an open ear, and eager to make an Engine that puts their competitor(s) like Google in the back seat.
Microsoft is in a unique position to change search and make it better… But hey we don’t want it better do we? Nah we prefer to stick with the same thing day in and day out. Not to mention we all prefer our information that was made public 6 months to a year ago… That’s a real winner for the public. Maybe change or a new face in the game is feared because so many of us fear change or having to learn something new.
Like The Contractor said above:
I like competition, makes everyone work a little harder.
Admittedly though I favored Google back when I believe they were about Search. Now I find my most relevant results in the SERPs from the ones located on the second or third page back at times. I don’t dare click on Adwords anymore because maybe half the time I am directed to a site that is chucked full of Adsense and no relevant content.
It is not hard to study Google or any Engine for that matter and see where improvements need to be made. Search has got to change in both how results are delivered, and how results are presented.
Google won’t ever go away, they are in the game for the long run without a doubt… I mean come on. Annnd maybe Google has a "Plan" to bring it all together. We shall see… I am optimistic, and believe in Google… but for now I am all about competition and hoping for something better.
As for Google Fans - I believe if MSN Search can attract a healthy userbase, deliver traffic, offer better options for website owners to earn more on ads.. We would all jump on their ship! ;)
Google won’t ever go away
LMAO - let me go boot up a CP/M box and edit some files in WordStar
Microsoft may be a diversified company, but the last time I saw any numbers, the ONLY 2 products that were turning a profit were Windows and Office.
Microsoft makes a killing from some of their games and certainly from MSDN. They make lots of money from their mice and keyboards. They have subscription services that may not make a killing, but certainly make a profit. They've got server components that make a fortune (SQL Server, Exchange, etc). Microsoft isn't hurting -- they've got more in cash reserves than most companies in the world have in complete value. Not to mention Microsoft is quick to buy up any company that's starting to emerge with a great product -- paying more than they're worth at the moment, but much less than they'll be worth in 2-3 years. Microsoft is also about to make a *major* push into VoIP according to IDC and several other sources.
As mentioned, they're losing market in the OS and Server markets because of open source
I don't understand why people are saying Microsoft is *loosing* share in the server markets -- MS has never dominated this arena and if anything, they're holding ground (see Netcraft May stats [news.netcraft.com]). With regards to non-web servers, Microsoft is still selling plenty of copies of Windows Server and Windows Small Business Server (which is a HUGE market). Linux may grow (some estimate to 27-28% by 2008), but there's PLENTY of room in that market for growth from multiple companies.
Microsoft is a mature company that is trying to postpone its ultimate demise. The products of the companies you quoted as examples were, to a large extent, trying to get into Microsoft dominated markets. This time it is Microsoft that is trying to get into markets that are dominated by better and more efficient operations.
You made the mistake many others with gravestones on Microsoft's front lawn made -- you underestimate just how powerful Bill can be when he wants something. Microsoft was late to the whole "internet" thing and with a simple, single email, Bill turned a huge company around on its head and dictated that from that day forward, their sole interest was in the internet. It worked and while there's plenty of room on the "internet" for many competitors, it's easy to say that Microsoft has certainly commanded a large market share.
Now they're getting into VoIP -- imagine how big THAT'S going to be.
It's the proprietary consumer software / os model whose days are numbered, that's what MS is worrying about.
Fortune 500 companies don't run the world -- mom and pop's do. And until someone can convince the mom and pop's (who could care less about computers) that they should abandon all they've learned over the years with Windows to switch to another OS, different applications, etc, Microsoft will continue to dominate. These are people who could care less what's available out there -- they care about running their businesses and having software that works and they understand. Converting these neophytes is going to take many many billions of dollars -- and who has those billions? Nobody.
Like Amazon.com? Ebay? Yahoo?
These companies have a LOT more going for them than Google.
Amazon not only sells their own products, they allow any Joe to use their customer base to their products. They allow huge companies to use the ease of the Amazon "engine."
Yahoo, much the same story. They have allowed small merchants a place to setup shop. They have a MUCH more diversified offering than Google and Google's own company mantra pretty much means they won't get into things like gaming, etc.
eBay puts buyers and sellers together and makes money off the exchange -- that model is one that will be around until the end of time. I'm not saying eBay couldn't be beat, but it would be a damn hard thing to do.
Google has search and that's it. They may search video, websites, catalogs, maps, etc -- but in the end, it's still search. And search is FAST becoming a commodity.
In 5 years there will be 4 things people use the internet for: research (commodity), entertainment, email and buying. Amazon and eBay have the buying part under control. Yahoo and Amazon provide entertainment. Email is already a commodity, so who cares. In 5 years, research will be a commidity, so who cares there either.
It's a bloody miracle any 3rd-party apps are able to float on top of that poisoned pond at all.
ROFL. Micrsoft has the best developer support in the world. No other OS, Server application, end-user application, etc, etc has 1/10th the product support that msdn.microsoft.com has. Microsoft hasn't opened up their API anymore with the threat of "open source" and their developers don't seem to be running away in droves (the ones that are never made money anyway and it'll be those of us in this industry to make money that will be paying their medicaid and social security).
Microsoft has done more than any other company in the world to allow for third party applications to run on top of virtually EVERY SINGLE ONE of their business applications.
Furthermore, Microsoft does listen to its customers. They have improved their support options over the years, created products that people *want* to buy and invested millions in developing user interfaces and ergnomic computer tools (that everyone ELSE has copied).
Google won’t ever go awayLMAO - let me go boot up a CP/M box and edit some files in WordStar
ROFL! I need to print that out and hang it on the wall!
S
It will all depend on how they will be able to monetize, but as a corporation with a share price that interesting it is all too natural that they will attract the smartest financial guys on the planet with ease.
For me: no bigger danger to G than for any other currently hot running corporation.
In order to survive Google must invest heavily in new product development (which means head-on competition with MSN) or do like AOL and leverage its market capitalization through acquistions to diversify.
The next 3 years will make or break Google. It's too early to be reading G's obituary or singing it's praises. The only predictable thing about Google is that it is unpredictable.
And I really enjoyed the "ad" in Msg#61! Yes, I also have wondered when we would see some kind of ad like that! :)
Another point they could add to that ad is,
"Did you know that proven high-relevant websites are pushed down in search results at G$ so that, for many, their only way for you to find their web-sites is to pay money for ads in G$? That's right, proven information providers are being secretly forced to pay for ads for the very same search words you used to be able to find them at no charge to them! That means G$ is blackmailing the web-sites who really have the important information you want. But what about those sites who cannot afford to pay that extortion? That means you can't find them! That mans that G$ is the "Big Brother" choosing what information you get to see! That's not right! For a company that does that, is G$ really the kind of company YOU want to use for searching?"
I have said it before and I'll say it again: the best thing that could happen to honest natural search would be for a company whose business model is so strong enough in other areas that it does not NEED the search product for revenue-generation. Notwithstanding M$'s overall troubling business ethical problems, M$ may be one of the very few companies large enough to do just that. And the natural SERPs of the current new M$N search completely blow the G$ dishonest "natural" SERPs out of the water. If M$ can restrain itself from overcapitalizing that search product, and choose to let true natural search be what it should be anyway (as it is, at present, in their new M$N search), then they could very well obliterate G$ as a SE over the next few years.
Hey, G$! Are you listening?
From our perspective, the ideal outcome is to have MS and Yahoo put strong competitive pressure on Google, without wresting away Google's current dominance. We want/need effective competition -- not an even bigger, stronger more dominant monopolist.
If MS were to control 95% of all web users' searching, it would be a disaster for the average webmaster, particularly given their history of solidifying and reinforcing their monopoly power in one market by competing in other markets until they gain a dominant position in the newly targeted markets. Whatever benefits they initially provide to others (customers) tend to be lost over time, as MS goes about designing and adopting strategies to exploit the newly gained market power in various subtle ways.
Compare the enormous improvement in price to value that has occured over the past 20 years with respect to RAM, central processors, hard drives, etc. with the minimal improvements achieved in the mass market software markets dominated by MS. At one point the MS OS cost the PC manufacturer about $20 and the PC sold for $2,500. Now the OS costs $100 or more, and the PC sells for $600 or less.
created products that people *want* to buy
This is what most people miss about M... They did not create products people wanted to buy... they created products and made people want to buy them.
The slight difference is why they are king, why they have more $'s than anybody else, and until they forget how to do this, why they will stay on top.
They are hands down, no question, the greatest marketing company ever.
Justin
BTW I am not a M lover - I use a Mac, do not, and will not own a PC... I have a lot of rewpect for those who do though, because I would beat one with a sledgehammer and throw it out the window within 1/2 a day, if I had to go through the headaches my friends who have them do.
MSN Search may have come out of Beta too early, but I have seen positive improvements since. And the issues MSN has to solve in contrast to the issues Google is dealing are huge.
So specifically how has the New MSN Search Failed - especially since it is still progressively moving forward?
When someone builds a new type of engine for a racecar from scratch - there is months and months of testing and adjustments that are made before it even competes in a race.
Perhaps the analogy above will help those understand - The MSN Search package is not even done yet, heck they have only started... I would prefer to call their new engine a platform.
The MSN Search package is not even done yet, heck they have only started... I would prefer to call their new engine a platform.
Forgive me for considering the people responsible for MSN Search as clueless but I saw the way that their badly written spiders hammered sites. Upsetting the content providers is a bad move.
Generally you only get one shot at a market where the competition is bigger and better. Microsoft had better stick to screwing punters for bug ridden software. In the search world, the players like Google and Yahoo provide moving targets for the people in Microsoft. Unfortunately for Microsoft, they are only used to shooting fish in barrels. You don't and probably won't hear people say that they "MSN Search"'ed something or someone. Even Yahoo's tag line is memorable. I don't share your enthusiasm for Microsoft but Google and Yahoo have their weaknesses too.
Regards...jmcc
Search engines don't make much money compared to a company like MS.
Its not about money - its about mindshare, something Microsoft enjoyed for a long time and now they have to fight to get it back.
Speaking at Gartner’s Symposium and IT/xpo 2005, Schmidt declared: "Twenty years ago, in the PC industry, there was broad competition. It was 10 years before the industry consolidated down - it will probably take the same time in the internet space. Microsoft is a new entrant and it remains to be seen what will play out
quite a discussion - what they call each other ;)
Why would any PC user need to depend on 3rd party software when they can just use their OS applications. Encarta most importantly would be supper to have as part of Word – just don’t think about Us using it – think about Mom and Pop and those kiddos doing homework. All they have to do is search within their Word application ;)
Seamless and user friendly – I mean so many already trust Microsoft, why go outside your OS and risk potential issues.
What are the odds on a future merger between Google and Apple?Hush now! I hope that would never happen!
2. It's much easier for MSFT to compete online than it is for Google to do so in OS.
