Finding good keywords to optimize

They are either too popular with sites or not poular enough with visitors

[Barb45d]

Hello. Newbie here. I am having trouble finding good keywords to optimize.

I have found on overture and wordtracker that my "good keywords" are either too popular with the web sites or not popular enough with visitors.

I am at a loss. I use adwords, but it is getting too expensive and not converting into enough sales.

Can anyone suggest how I can find other keywords? I have used wordtracker and the keywords they suggest are just too far off topic or too hard to write into actual text.

[satanclaus]

Altavista and Teoma offer refined search phrases that prove useful. They don't give actual numbers but they may present you with some options you haven't thought to use.

[Barb45d]

Thank you that is exactly what I was looking for...
From what I have read here the numbers put out by
Overture and wordtrakcer are kind of guesses any way
But what I needed was a "fresh" look at some phrases that I am not seeing.