Keyword lists at bottom of page?

(but should I be doing it?)

[giggle]

In an effort to push up throught the SERPs I made a list of the key words I would like users to find us using, and placed them at the bottom of my page. Not hidden, black bold font on a light blue cell background.

The results were really quite good, althought it looks a bit ugly. We moved up on all the phrases that I listed.

Does Google allow this or will I eventually be penalised?

[Lots0]

Google's treatment of Nielsen's site isn't "selective" unless one can show that the vast majority of other sites using the same technique have been penalized.

Oh I think Google is “selective” (A lot of sites have been banned for using hidden text) - If this kind of thing had been found on SearchKing, Google would have used it to justify their actions in banning SearchKing.

Google has stated that ranking in their Search Engine is based on “opinion”.

And Jakob seems to be aware of this or he would have removed the hidden text by now. It looks to me to be one of those good ole’boy things. “You’re a good ole’boy Jakob we’ll let you slide on this hidden text thing. And if we don't talk about it, everyone will soon forget it and this whole thing will go away."

[ciml]

Liane, I would expect a site to use the kinds of words that the constituent audience might use. What I wouldn't do personally is just throw them onto a page as a list. Google likes phrases, and fortunately it makes perfect sense to spread those phrases across a site in a non-spammy, but very effective manner.

I don't think that we should read to much into Mr Nielsen's motivation. As Brett points out, he has a site search.

As for Google's motivation if we assume they've hand reviewed that page at some point (very likely IMO). Well...if that was an affiliate site for certian types of goods or services, or if it was one of those SEO related companies that Google like so much (:)), then I'm quite sure that a sterner line would be taken.

If the primary goal of a human reviewer is to maintain Google's index quality, then I can't see much justification for a penalty.

[KMxRetro]

Just to wander off topic for a second...is it *just* me, or does anybody else find that Jakob's Use-it site is exactly the opposite of usable, as it is incredibly hard to find anything when you need it?

Usability isn't about making it look as basic as possible, it's about making it usable in a real-world situation.

And yes, I think that the site should be penalised for the spam.

[Agnew73]

Amen, KMxRetro! The spam trick alone is pretty amateur, but for as much buzz as he's throwing out that he's the second coming of Christ and the Ferdinand Magellan of Internet usability, this is the kind of page you'd expect from someone running for Elks Lodge poobah.

Regarding his list of accolades, I didn't check, but the one from "CONTENTIOUS" magazine, is anyone sure that wasn't "PRETENTIOUS" magazine?

[deft_spyder]

at the elks lodge, its the 'exaulted ruler', and that would be my dad, and i'd die before his site looked like that, so lets leave the elks out of this. :)

interesting, if anyone else checked out the spam text at the bottom of the spam inc website, that text is actually useful text that I believe could be easily worked into the site design with css to look nice.

then the keywords could be h1, and be higher on the page. isnt that sound design?

[Agnew73]

Oh, man, I knew I was going to step on some toes with that one! I didn't mean to diss your father. I'll leave any references to fraternal organizations out of all future posts!

[deft_spyder]

as i post more and more im sure the fact im sarcastic and basically nothing phases me will become more evident, so please dont think i meant anything more than a joke from that. :) im sure my dad is fine with it too. :)

and, on topic, i still cant fathom why most of the hidden text on pages is hidden. usually it is text that could be displayed, and be perfectly fine doing so. is it bad to have on some portion of the page a note, small, that says "you are in the right place even if you spelled widgets 'widgts, widgettes, etc'. I also dont think it is bad to put a list of topics covered in the website, which will of course be all of your keywords.

for ethical seo, as long as your site does indeed cover those keywords, and for seo's sake, you should work them into the site, i can't see how or why this would be penalized.

[Lots0]

...for seo's sake, you should work them into the site

Yes they should, but doing that takes brains, imagination and a little bit of work. It does not take any imagination to hide text at the bottom of the page.

<snip>

[edited by: NFFC at 11:35 pm (utc) on Jan. 19, 2003]
[edit reason] TOS #4 [/edit]

[Robert Charlton]

Jacob Nielsen, Jakob Neilsen, Jacob Neilsen, Jakob Nielson, Jacob Nielson, Jakob Neilson, Jacob Neilson, Jakob Nilsen, Jacob Nilsen, Jakob Nelson, Jacob Nelson

I'm wondering whether he should have done it this way to avoid a repetition penalty... and also dropped the commas so the engines would see these as phrases...

Jacob Jakob Neilsen Nielson Nilsen Nelson

The page would load faster this way too.

[danny]

Heh, that reminds me of the Milne poem [ingeb.org] that starts: "James James Morrison Morrison Weatherby George Dupree ...".

[Powdork]

Jacob Jakob Neilsen Nielson Nilsen Nelson

But then it wouldn't be as valuable for the actual search phrases, which would be the full name. The only name he would likely do well for would be Jakob Nielsen

[mattlamb]

Think I put my whole site in "microtext" it should load a lot faster, hey I could even microsize my images.

wait a second if its micro why not put it at the top then the search engine would place a higher importance on the words... hmmm

[rogerd]

Hmmm, the hidden text is still there. It would be nice if ol' Jakob would drop by here sometime.

As far as the microtext being primarily targeted at a site search... does that make sense? If a user got to this site that's by and about Jakob N., one would think they could locate the "about" page without having to resort to a site search. (Particularly true on a site with such superb usability! I only had to scroll down about three screens to find a nav link to "about". I can see why this guy commands the big bucks! ;)) Also, many internal search engines have their own way of "forcing" results without having to resort to hidden text.

Gotta love the official UK Spam site's clever SEO! :)

[atadams]

He commands the big bucks because he's in the Scandinavian Interactive Media Hall of Fame.

[Robert Charlton]

>>The only name he would likely do well for would be Jakob Nielsen<<

Worst case in this example...

Jacob Jakob Neilsen Nielson Nilsen Nelson

...would be Jacob Nelson, where you're stretching the proximity by a fair amount. I'm not sure even that name is all that competitive.

But... if you wanted to nail exact phrase name searches (and I've got to confess, that's sometimes the way I'll search names), then all the name pairs separated by commas would be best.

[percentages]

Anyone who designs web pages to look like those of the guy with the identity crisis, AKA

"Jacob Nielsen, Jakob Neilsen, Jacob Neilsen, Jakob Nielson, Jacob Nielson, Jakob Neilson, Jacob Neilson, Jakob Nilsen, Jacob Nilsen, Jakob Nelson, Jacob Nelson"

must need their head examined. It is a classic example of 1997 web design.

Get with the times, whatever you think your name is, and clean the thing up. There is usable, like WW;), and IMHO just plain ugly!

Hideous use of fonts, poor navigation and personal photos. Sort of thing I expect to see on a bad GeoCities site.

BTW...where is Brett's pic...LOL...no Brett, we don't really need to see you in the top right-hand corner....thanks for not putting it there :)

[indiabackoffice]

I think Jakob Nielsen is a great SHOW MAN. Just like this page, he must have connections with the medias writting about him.
Or did he bluf the Editors also just like he is cheating google.
BOOOOOOOOOOOO

[getvisibleuk]

don't we say that a site should be updated regularly?

On [useit.com ] he says:

Download times rule the Web, and since most users have access speeds on the order of 28.8 kbps, Web pages can be no more than 3 KB if they are to download in one second which is the required response time for hypertext navigation.

mmm!

[tyrojds]

If he weren't sheepish I can't think why JN placed the script so far down. That being said, however, isn't it a bit of a stretch calling the text "hidden?" "Hidden" means "secret" and the text in question is not a very well-kept one as this discussion demonstrates. When I play - er, played, hide and seek I didn't go to a corner and curl up in a small ball. That's not hiding. How far does the definition extend? What if I use a font that's just hard to read. How about 8 pt Bickley Script, for example? Is that spam?