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Do you think the SE's, will start looking at these kinds of domains as spam?
its really only webmasters and seos who view multiple kw domains as being spammy.
Regular users dont know the difference or care.
JOAT
It's impossible to see how they could, without examining all the different scenarios and passing a summary value judgment, not to mention putting themselves in the position of dictating moral and ethical standards which have nothing to do with relevancy or quality of search results. I'm inclined to think that's something which it's unlikely they'd do, at least not by any deliberate intention.
To be perfectly honest, and at the risk of reiterating a point already made, it isn't Google that concerns me. I believe they know exactly what's happening and what they're dealing with.
What concerns me is the climate of FEAR that's being created by the excessive harping on the subject of alleged SPAM, which in most cases is not spam at all by legitimate definition. What's of concern is the constant discussion which is serving to instill paranoia created not by Google, but by those with personal agendas, insufficient knowledge, and enough vocal exposure by reason of sheer numbers to skew the whole issue out of proportion and make other people's lives unnecessarily uncomfortable.
It's highly doubful that inveterate professional spammers will be stopped. Those who know what they're doing know exactly what the odds are and what their next steps would be; they'd find a way around whatever could be imposed. The element of fear is hurting and is most damaging to those who are innocent in their intentions. Those are the innocent victims of the self-righteous crusaders and white hats who in the long run will serve to further the goals of those they claim to loathe by scaring honest webmasters out of the field altogether.
No, the devil can't always be identified by wearing a red pajama suit. Sometimes he can come dressed in white robes and a white hat, which can be doubly evil and destructive to the innocent.
Google has been rather specific in what it regards as spam, ie. hidden text, etc. Leave it at that.
Sorry, gotta disagree on both points. :)
1. The SEs are not the spam police and do not dictate what spam is. I refuse to blindly accept the judgement of a commercial organisation on this issue.
It is clearly that "spam" is but a generic term used to describe many techniques.
Which brings us on to:
2. Yes, a few will always have a go at those who are ahead of them (and yell, "spammer"). Some will try to abuse the thin line between what is spam and what is not.
But, wouldnt you say as a whole the webmaster community is professional enough to accept that who is number one is number and the only way to change that is thru self improvement (developing and optimising your own site)?
Just my thoughts! :)
JOAT
But, wouldnt you say as a whole the webmaster community is professional enough to accept that who is number one is number and the only way to change that is thru self improvement (developing and optimising your own site)?
I couldn't agree more!
My point is that in practical effect the judgment of Google and the other SEs as to what is spam is what counts. You can accept that or not as you wish. You can have a thousand personal opinions. But the bottom line is that its spam when Google says its spam.
There's a well known Bhuddist leader in my neighborhood who says "Reality is the way things are whether we like it or not".
Granted Google has a fairly large say in the matter!
JOAT :)
If someone sets up a large number of sites, designed to get multiple listings under irrelevant phrases, then Google's users may well get a bad experience. I don't understand where hyphens come into this.
But, wouldnt you say as a whole the webmaster community is professional enough to accept that who is number one is number and the only way to change that is thru self improvement (developing and optimising your own site)?
No.
How come Marcia?
www.colorado-villa-rentals.com not spammy. It is a bonafide and very descriptive company name as well as a time honoured marketing strategy which just makes sense.
www.colorado-villa-rentals-accommodations-villas-for-rent-colorado-river-best-in-the-business.com is most certainly spammy ... not to mention stupid!
widgetswidgets-co.com!
Also spammy and stupid in my opinion.
What if they aren't trying for brand recognition? Not long ago I bought something from a company with a keyword-stuffed domain. If I want to buy a fuzzy blue widget, fuzzy-blue-widgets.com sounds like someone who has what I want. Of course I did comparison shop. The idea of brand recognition is relevant only if the real goal is to be a very big company. Keyword-stuffed domains are niche marketing. Also note one company can operate under multiple URLs.
ie. Spammy is what we think is spam and Spam is what Gooogle thinks is spam.
This means that in the long term domain name and possibly brand name definition will become more and more important.
I know of a lot of people who will not work with x domain because of bad service, I also know that more and more people are becoming more net savvy, so while I am not discussing whether hyphenated domains are spam or not I just look at them as short term sites. Or perhaps sites trying to make money in a cyber squatting sort of way.
It's really like Marcia said: There are so many different people with so many different approaches. But luckily the web is a huge adventureland. There's room enough for all of us. No need for bitchin & snitchin, no need for spreading fear and envy.
Do your own thing. If you are in for the long haul and don't want to gamble, then build the best site you can. Work hard on it, build , improve, build more, improve more. It will all come your way, SEs, links, visitors, customers, the press. Who cares if at some point some people are in front of you in some engine? Your site will be there when the other site has long gone to ashes.
Keyword-stuffed domains are niche marketing.
Correct. www.villarentals.com is a fine url and company name as well. www.villa-rentals.com is also fine. It is personal preference to include the hyphens or not. I would consider this url a larger "niche market" name, as they would likely represent villa rentals all over the world.
www.colorado-villa-rentlas.com takes it that one step further and becomes a very acceptable "small" niche market url.
I just look at them as short term sites. Or perhaps sites trying to make money in a cyber squatting sort of way.
I can assure you that I am not spending hundreds upon hundreds of hours developing short term or throw away sites. These hyphenated domain sites represent my livlihood ... which I plan to continue maintaining for many years to come!
There is good content offered on the sites (if I do say so myself) and quality service to back it up.
Throwing a blanket term like "spam" or "cyber squatting" around a legitimate company name or url, simply because the owner has opted to use hyphens is ... well, its just silly ... IMHO of course. :)
Hyphens don't need to have anything to do with it, thats just the way it's being done. As far as I know googlebot will destinguish each word in this way.
Go60Guy
Nice destinction spammy / spam.
So I named the files after what the page was about so I could remember which one was which. Would google consider a file that goes something like this spam? word1_word2_word3.htm
I can't imagine Google thinking that keyword-rich filenames are spam. On the contrary: they provide Googlebot with "spider food." And, as you suggest, they're much easier for the Webmaster to recognize, which makes them easier to maintain. (I used to be hosted by a network that insisted on filenames like aa010203.htm, and I find it MUCH easier to change a link or update a paragraph when I can just go into a directory and look for "shelbyville-transportation.htm.")
Note the underscores, too. Is there a difference between using underscores vs. using hyhens? I've used underscores in all my file names. Is this good or bad?
I've read repeatedly (here at Webmaster World, probably) that Google treats hyphens as spaces between words but may not do the same with underscores. I don't know if that's true, but I now use hyphens in my filenames to help Google understand what my pages are about (e.g., "shelbyville-restaurants.htm," "shelbyville-museums.htm," etc.).
Other engines have done similar before many times.
1) Neutralize what it regards as artificial attempts to manipulate its search results (hidden text, cloaking, doorway pages, massive crosslinking, etc.).
2) Deliver the most relevant results for a given search string.
Now, Google's Ph.D.'s might not be ready to penalize or downgrade every site that has more than two or three hyphens in its domain name. And indeed, they probably shouldn't, because it's just barely possible that a Web-clueless genius might come up with the definitive Web site on lunar geology under the domain name doctor-does-moon-rocks-lunar-geology-research-data.com.
However, Google's Ph.D.'s could decide, after studying 1,000 sites with multi-hyphenated domain names, that--on the whole--such sites are no more likely to deliver relevant content than are sites with names like moonrocks.com or even doctordoe.com. If that's the case, those Google Ph.D.'s could simply give less weight to domain names in their algorithm. (IMHO, that's a more reasonable and likely scenario than applying a blanket penalty to sites with multi-hyhenated domain names.)
Or, since everyone agrees more hyphens is spammier, how about pr = pr - (.3 * n), where n is the number of hyphens counted in the domain? :) You could even say n is the number of hyphens minus 1 if you wanted to allow sites a free hyphen.
I agree with the original premise that Google could increase results quality by simply downgrading anything with a dash in the domain. A simple (pr=pr-1 if domain=~"-").
Simply not fair, what about if you really wanted a site called Webmaster World and webmasterworld.com was already taken and not being used, but because you really wanted that name you had to use webmaster-world.com, do you think you should be penalized? I know you probably would not do it, but there are many people that don't have a choice, they have to use the hyphen for legitimate reasons.
Maybe the line should be drawn according to the number of hyphens, 1 or 2 ok, 3 or more, not ok.
Your formula kind of takes that into account, but I would remove the penalty for 1 and 2 hyphens.
This makes more sense...penalising sites with hypens is a not a wise solution and will affect a number of legitimate content sites...
There are words that are hyphenated ie. "Pro-Am Tour", and legitimate reasons for using hyphens to achieve clarity and meaning. I think that should be distinguished from the lengthy strings of hyphenated keyword that are being discussed here. We all know those when we see them.
[edited by: Go60Guy at 4:32 pm (utc) on Dec. 10, 2002]
It is entirely possible for a hyphenated domain to contain the best content in its niche market. So, does it get less importance than other domains?
Perhaps we could also give less importance to people with hyphens in their names as well....dont respond to their posts within, ooh say, 2 hours of posting? ;)
IMHO i dont think google should put any importance on the domain name, and if they do it should be minimal.
Just a small point though - if we are having this discussion now, then it is almost certain that the big G's Phds have talked this one over. Chances are the result is already in the algo.
Either that theyre all glued to WW, frantically cutting and pasting these posts for future reference! :)
JOAT
But would this improve *relevance*? Odds are fuzzy-blue-widgets.com sell fuzzy blue widgets, and if that is #1 when some punter enters "fuzzy blue widgets sales" into Google, they are getting what they want. Also, while with some commercial SERPs these hyphenated domain names are "spammy", non-commercial sites tend to use these just to indicate what the site is about. Remember, non-commercial sites normally *aren't* interested in developing a "brand". They choose such domain names to be descriptive.
You betcha the directories, image names and the html pages are all logically named ready for him to understand at a glance.. Did I consider that google might think it was spam.. NO Way!
I'm not going to pay my staff to site and wonder what is what!
It's standard file naming and logical to use descriptive words for file names and standard that hypens seperate those words. You could use, jammed together names and cause difficulty of understanding, you could use space and mess up on some servers, or you could use underscore and not have your intention clearly legible in links.. so hyphens are good stuff.
As far as domain names go.. well you have to live with it, it's noone elses business.. but I would say in all of this that there would and/or should be a "line" as in
keyword "stuffing".. where that line sits is up to the search engine..
As for me, I will continue with logical files.. thanks :)
