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However, in some cases, snippets show the keyword list which is obviously undesirable. So should keyword lists be replaced by whole sentences or are search engines clever enough with synonyms, etc. that such lists can be done away with altogether?
Alternatively, should I mix up my synonyms, etc. in my main text? (I find this a very untidy concept.)
Anyone have views on this?
Kaled.
That is why I phrased that "The above leads me to think you are spamming." "...leads me to think..." means that I am not quite sure exactly what he meant. Without actually seeing the page I have know way of being able to evaluate if it looks spammy to me. I didn't intend to say that the OP was necessarily a spammer.
For reasons not relevant to this discussion, I've held back my latest release, but I have optimised its index page to the absolute max. I have even included a discussion on what it can't do just to cram in a few more relevant keywords. It's kind of an academic experiment to see how Google and other search engines react to it. And, for the record, it's freeware.
Kaled.
... rather than get personal in ignorance, I prefer to mind my own business and deal with the issues that affect everyone. Otherwise it's a waste of time to read a thread and wade through extraneous noise ...
That was a long message about not making people read off-topic information ....
I thought my comments were very relevant to the situation and I think all aspects of this should be discussed rather than solving Kaled's 'problem'. You okay Marcia? Bad day?
rfgdxm1's comments regarding whether it is spam or not are also very relevant as if Kaled could get banned for what he is doing then it is best if we offer advice based around that.
How about putting the synonyms in a table, with each keywordonym in a different cell?
I'm intrigued, what would that do exactly that is different from the keyword list?
I like my main text to be consistent, for instance, I prefer to always refer to a sofa as a sofa rather than mix up settees and sofas, etc. in my main text. It's just a question of style.When you only have a single keyword and a single synonym, there is not much of a problem, but in reality, a typical page will require half a dozen or so alternative keywords or in some cases, key-phrases.
As for spamming, well, my products do exactly what the page text says, no BS etc. If the user is satisfied that the page is relevant to the search, so far I am concerned, it isn't spam.
>>>If you are doing what I think you are
What is he doing? Where did it say what kind of pages they were? To me, it seems that kaled has his_own_products on the page. What is there about his first post that could lead us to imagine what he's doing, or that he's spamming?
The issue is how to control how the snippets will appear in the serps when a page appears for the search word or search term, so it's a decent description. Something better than
Customer Service Contact upholstered couches Copyright 2004 Acme Sofa, all rights reserved. Web design by Some Company
or just a few keywords in a row. The answer is that you just put the words into a paragraph with surrounding text that will be appealing to surfers to click on.
Better yet, make more pages with a broader keyword base and link to those from the page. Make the whole *site* relevant with breadth of content.
[google.com...]
I have never yet heard of anyone getting banned or penalized for putting visible_text on their page when it's simply synonyms for exactly what's on the page. Is Alta Vista spamming by putting related keywords on the page? Is Yahoo, for putting alternate words on the page? What is spammy about visible text on pages?
Better yet, make more pages with a broader keyword base and link to those from the page. Make the whole *site* relevant with breadth of content.
Very powerful.
Need more information?
What's the difference between a sofa and a settee? Where does a davenport fit in?
sofa <---> sofa
settee <---> settee
davenport <---> davenport
The power of internal link text!
It's the definition of spam. Go to an adult page. See the paragraph of text about whatever at the top. Scroll down and see lists of every single porn star name, and every single type of adult activity. Let's get real here. It's the epitome of spam, and a tactic used by the lowest quality sites on the Internet (and its a bad thing to have anything in common with such pages). Pages like that get ranking demerits (and boosts) all the time.
If words on the page do nothing to enhance the user experience, but are strictly used to boost ranking (to get more people to the page), that is spam as defined by the search engines. Thus, the lists of words are dangerous, and crafting the words into sentences or links that can be minutely useful to users is a better way to proceed.
I would bet a dollar that if the Google algo is not smart enough to pick this now as a poor "quality signal", it will eventually.
Try making them into paragraphs. You can take these synonyms and make them into useful pages. You are where I was. When I changed them into paragraphs the snippets became much better. Then I linked from the keywords to the appropriate product pages. It worked out really well.
Just for the record I don't think it's spam and I can't believe this turned into a spam thread. He wasn't asking anyone if this was spam, he was asking how to make the snippets better.
rfgdxm1 - I usually agree with most of what you post, but you really hijacked this thread.
Steveb - Your definition of spam differs greatly from Googles definition: [google.com ] and [google.com ]
They mention hidden text, doorway pages, cloaking, but not plainly visible text.
OK. let's get real. If those ladies and those activities are on the site it's relevant and it is not spam - it represents what is on the site. If they are not it is spam. Ladies and activities are not spam. Sneaky, deceptive things on web pages are spam.
If a page is selling baby strollers and someone in the UK is looking for one, they will be looking for push chairs and will NOT find the page unless it has pushchairs on it. Same thing! Pushchair = stroller. Pram = baby carriage.
Just another perfectly legitimate word for the same indentical baby product. If they want a custom blanket they will look for a bespoke blanket - and will not find that personalized baby blanket unless it says bespoke on the page.
Vegetables: in California they are green onions - in New York they are scallions. Same vegetable. In Australia they are something else. Synonyms, not spam. So if someone uses the words bespoke and custom on the same page it's spam. Or apparel and clothing on the same page, then it's spam.
Besides, what's the topic of the thread according to the first post? Why all of a sudden was it concluded that it was a spam page - a scraper scum directory page made for Adsense revenue, to boot!
I thought that's what it's supposed to be about, the original question - how to incorporate synonyms into the page. Are we talking morality or semantics? This member will be giving away FREE SOFTWARE - not selling smut, and not scraping sites for content. He is creating original content and discussing how to do effective, good SEO. Which is nobody's business to know or judge - no one got appointed for that. Who decides what the original poster discusses when they ask a question?
>>Steveb - Your definition of spam differs greatly from Googles definition:
Apparently Alta Vista and Yahoo as well because they BOTH have associated keyword and phrases on their pages. So they are spamming just like the adult sites, huh?
Yes, let's get real and have some respect for the question the member asks in the first message instead of accusing them of what our fertile imaginations tell us they are doing, which couldn't be further from reality - and couldn't take it more off-topic if it was deliberate.
I can't believe this turned into a spam thread. He wasn't asking anyone if this was spam, he was asking how to make the snippets better.
Exactly! And some people tried to address the topic, in spite of the hindrances being injected to the contrary - to turn it into yet another fruitless spam discussion.
[edited by: Marcia at 12:19 am (utc) on Sep. 10, 2004]
Yes, let's get real and have some respect for the question the member asks in the first message instead of accusing them of what our fertile imaginations tell us they are doing, which couldn't be further from reality if it was deliberate.
Chill.
Kaled, I'm sure you're site is legit, it's steveb's researching methods I'm dubious about! ;) Though it is a fair point, there are billions of porn pages with keywords stuffed in them and the majority don't do very well for those keywords so maybe it is time for a change Kaled. The idea of placing 'opposite keywords' (i.e. keywords about what you DON'T do) has given me some food for thought ....
Plus, even on one page it isn't necessary to use just one term; there's nothing wrong with having richness of vocabulary and using different forms of words to describe the same thing if they're accurate. Software = program, nothing wrong with that.
The idea of placing 'opposite keywords' (i.e. keywords about what you DON'T do) has given me some food for thought ....
Getting in the surfers shoes [webmasterworld.com]
A WebmasterWorld classic.
>rfgdxm1 - I usually agree with most of what you post, but you really hijacked this thread.
What *I* think is or is not spam is irrelevant. All that would count is what Google thinks. The OP wrote that "At the bottom of key pages I have short lists of keywords and phrases (usually less than a dozen words). In part this is because I like to keep my text consistent and not mix my synonyms, etc.", and this was messing up his snippets. When I have seen short lists of keywords and phrases stuck at the bottom of the page, almost always this was done to rank better in search engines, and not for the reader's benefit. DaveAtIFG posted "GoogleGuy insists that if you build your site for users first..." If on human review someone at Google though the site was constructed specifically with ranking well in search engines first, that the snippets were being messed up might suddenly no longer become an issue. :(
One of the points raised here is that what kaled is doing currently could easily be construed as spamming, and that could hurt his ranking. So, making sentences makes sense if he is concerned about what is best about ranking. That is the topic, not anyone's philosophy about this or that.
The real world issue is what things kaled should consider (in regard to those words in question) in creating his pages. Please stick to that.
And just to try again to keep the focus on the topic here, having lists of words can be seen as spam, period. Yahoo even *specifically* calls it out on their spam reporting form!
"Excessive keyword repetition"
So, we should presume that Google is aware of this, and these blocks of words that are not coherent are being viewed or potentially could be viewed as a sign of low quality. Is Google great at detecting non-sentences? Probably no. Should we expect them to get better? Absolutely yes.
Even if listing keywords is completely innocent, my view is you are completely unneccesarily risking your page by including them. Make sentences. Make good, descriptive keyword links. Use synonyms in your body text. There are no risks there.
Even a sentence as simple as "A sofa is also known as a davenport or couch" is user friendly and adds value to a page, whereas just having davenport and couch at the bottom of a page adds nothing and could even confuse the .1% out there who didn't know they were synonyms.
>Even a sentence as simple as "A sofa is also known as a davenport or couch" is user friendly and adds value to a page, whereas just having davenport and couch at the bottom of a page adds nothing and could even confuse the .1% out there who didn't know they were synonyms.
Yep. Easy to find ways to work any keywords into sentences that make sense to humans. Why take the risk to do otherwise?
How about putting the synonyms in a table, with each keywordonym in a different cell?Oops, bad example. Layers are the way to force your snippets.
<body>
The Barrington
<div id="Layer1" style="position:absolute; width:51px; height:22px; z-index:1; top: 400; left: 60;">setttee</div>
Sofa is crafted from rare Madagascan hardwoods for everlasting beauty and just plain ever lasting
<div id="Layer2" style="position:absolute; width:51px; height:22px; z-index:2; top: 400; left: 120;">davenport</div>.
</body>
