Google SEO longterm?

[layer8]

I had a site, SEO was done, was in top rankings for about 2 months then overnight for no reason site was positioned way down the rankings. All practices were ethical and it seemed no point or logic to this what happend to me.

If you speak to all the best Internet Marketing Pros they tell you SEO is a waste of time longterm, everyone in the industry has lost their position at somepoint from what I gather - or am I wrong?

I want to hear from anyone who has had long term success with SEO say for 6 months or longer....

[marin]

Despite all our problems, Google HAS to be focused on the user, not the free-lunch webmaster. I've suffered, but I certainly see things from G's perspective.

I agree, JD. But the problem is: good site vs. good services: how many customers wants to know if your site has right keyword density? May be the right SERp should count the customers vote!

[miss understood]

Hello GoogleGuy,

Your posts and insights are very much appreciated. Would you be so kind as to address the following?:

Have certain sites plummeted in rankings because of something they *did* (ie a penalty, such as for keyphrase in title, high density of keyphrase, etc)?

Or do these sites no longer enjoy high ranking because of something they *didn't* do (ie enough written content, quality info etc)?

The key question being, is Google imposing any kind of *penalty* that is affecting the new SERPs?

I'm sure we would all be very grateful if you could provide guidance with regards to this matter. If we can stop worrying about having been penalized for something, we can all get back to building good content. It's hard to want to write an informative article on "blue hairy widgets", however, when you are afraid that mentioning "blue hairy widgets" multiple times in the process (or titling the page "blue hairy widgets") may boot you into the black hole...

Thanks in advance for your input! :-)

[GoogleGuy]

superscript/marin, I'm not trying to argue, and I apologize if it comes off that way. I'm just saying for some specific searches (using "cheeseburger" as an example search), a user typing in "cheeseburger" probably isn't really looking to buy one from their Google results page. If I tried to put on my user hat, I would honestly guess that recipes would be the best match if that's all I knew about their query. Sometimes there's user-centered philosophy and SEO-centered philosophy. The best SEOs in my opinion are exactly the ones that practice user-centered philosophy.

Let me try to give a different example; check out this thread:
[webmasterworld.com...]
Read the first post. Notice how the first post only talks about rankings and different ways to manage backlinks? That post at first read sounds only like "how can I do better in rankings for this particular phrase?", without mentioning underlying quality or site utility at all. Instead, they're comparing backlink counts and asking how the keyword should be in the domain, etc. That poster would probably do well to read Brett's posts rather than concentrate on what he thinks of as his big keyword. Checking server logs would probably find many other more productive ways to build his site than spending all his time on that single phrase.

[deanril]

Oh no......... I see where they are going....... They want the SERPS to be information about "Widgets" and they want adwords to be "buy Widgets here" They want to train their users to click on Adwords to buy, but look into the serps for information about.......

Atleast thats what I got from GG post....and current serps.

Thats not very nice way to play the game Google.

What you didnt think about is "What will they do to counter us". The answer is so simple :)

[edited by: deanril at 5:35 pm (utc) on Nov. 24, 2003]

[marin]

Dear GoogleGuy

I see your point; but c-est la guerre!
E commerce companies spend a lot of money and energy to
be on top

[synergy]

They want the SERPS to be information about "Widgets" and they want adwords to be "buy Widgets here".

Make sense to me.. not everyone looking for "business widgets" wants to BUY a business widget, but AdWords just happen to be chock full of people selling business widgets.

This will generate Google more money, however, if anything I think this is training searchers to become more precise with their searches such as "buy business widgets" etc. Generalized keyword searches give generalized keyword results... what a concept.

[edited by: synergy at 5:38 pm (utc) on Nov. 24, 2003]

[GoogleGuy]

miss understood, there's nothing like that--that's the nice thing about algorithmic changes; new scores can be computed without any human intervention. So as far as the person who not only claimed that pages were penalized but that you should make the exact same page with a completely new url just to test changes.. that's barking up the wrong tree. Building good content sites is the best thing for users, and we're trying to bring those results to users. So no, I wouldn't worry about "penalties" from the most recent changes.

Hope that helps,
GoogleGuy

[edited by: GoogleGuy at 5:36 pm (utc) on Nov. 24, 2003]

[highman]

>E commerce companies spend a lot of money and energy to be on top

Yes but not with Google, they will have to now

[James_Dale]

Yes, I think you are right. To be expected though, really. Google has to make money somewhere. If there's an opportunity to massively increase revenues, it would be silly for them to ignore it.

[monsterisp]

superscript, why wouldn't you type buy cheeseburger or cheeseburger prices? Why should just the query cheeseburger carry an implicit "buy" keyword along with it? You don't think an average user is probably looking for recipes, esp. given that it's hard to order a cheeseburger online and have it arrive fresh? ;)

I agree with GoogleGuy, BUT what about all the sites that are now no were to be seen for their 2 or 3 word keywords that narrow the search down to exactly what the user is looking for. I mean I agree, if someone was to search for "cheeseburger" then they could be looking for information on anything relating to cheeseburgers. HOWEVER, if someone types in "buy cheeseburgers" why would the history of the cheeseburger be the #1-10 result (post-florida)? Pre-Florida Update, buy cheeseburger, gave you 10 relevant links to where you could buy a low cost cheeseburgers (ie, exactly what the end-user was seeking in the first place). ;-)

I think you guys are on the right track at Google by eliminating broad based keywords from commercial only sites which have dominated them previously (thus creating a more information rich and diverse virtual world), but need to still leave the door open for very specific queries to produce relevant results if the end user's intentions were to make a specific purchase.

[c1bernaught]

Synergy:

Not everyone searching for "business widgets" is looking for just information either...

How is "buy business widgets" a generalization? That seems a pretty specific search to me.

How is Google training people to "become more precise with their searches"? It's not Google who will train users... users train themselves by using an SE. They will use whatever combination of KW's that get's them what they are looking for.

Geez...

[James_Dale]

I think there is a door open. The emphasis may be on information, that is all. The SERPs show a mix of informational and purchase oriented results. If you can reach the top for either one of those categories, you've got a good chance.

[europeforvisitors]

GoogleGuy wrote:

superscript, why wouldn't you type buy cheeseburger or cheeseburger prices? Why should just the query cheeseburger carry an implicit "buy" keyword along with it? You don't think an average user is probably looking for recipes, esp. given that it's hard to order a cheeseburger online and have it arrive fresh? ;)

I'm not superscript, but I'll hop in and say that I'd never buy a cheeseburger on the Web. :-)

This brings up an interesting point: Wouldn't Google solve a lot of its spam problems if it categorized pages as "information" pages or "e-commerce" pages and weighted its results toward information except where the user included certain keywords such as "buy" or "shopping" in the search string? Or, to repeat a suggestion that I've made before, couldn't Google's search box include radio buttons for "I want information about..." and "I want to shop for..."?

Obviously, some pages fall into grey areas (an information page with affilitate links, for example), but it shouldn't be too hard to figure that a page with a shopping cart or a reservations button is an e-commerce page.

Such differentiation wouldn't just keep commercial pages from making it harder for backbard BBQ buffs to find cheeseburger recipes; it would also be good for users who want to buy something and dislike having those pesky information pages cluttering up their search results. :-)

[GoogleGuy]

monsterisp, we've been looking for examples of searches like that, because there's always room to improve searches, and we want users to get the best results (both if they're looking for info or if they're looking to buy). If you have examples like that, we'd like to hear them. Send them to the spamreport or webmaster [at] google.com with the keyword floridaquality instead of floridaupdate. I couldn't agree more with your last paragraph, and I'd expect that going forward we want to make sure that users are able to find info if they want info and are able to find good product/service sites if they want to buy.

Okay, it's a family member's birthday today, so I gotta spend some time off-line. I'll keep stopping by off and on though.

[netnerd]

Generally you will find that most insurance sites offer information about insurance, in particular the insurance that they sell.

At the moment, im finding sites in my 'widget insurance country' search that provide insurance in that country but dont provide widget insurance, or even mention widget on the page or in the inbound links.

I also got the inland revenue's site up whilst i was trying to find home insurance.

Ill admit that this update hasnt been kind to me, but being as objective as i can, I can definately say there has been a big decline in the relevancy of search results.

Google seems to have taken a dislike to directory type sites (maybe we are not supposed to 'do their job for them') but i think that these sites are a great way to concisely get information , reviews and prices from different companies, without having to wade through the now often irrelevant results we are getting.

Surely well structured affilaite sites should be smiled upon rather than the opposite?

I totally agree that if i type in a search for a particular product then there is a very good chance im hoping to buy one , and if i want more information about it, then i will use a longer more specific search term (see the cheeseburger recipe/history example).

Isn't it a happy coincidence that adwords just happens to be there now....