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The top 5 and 6 positions are all those web sites with www.my-keyword-keyword-keyword.com and because they
have so many keywords in the domain name they rank well because of the number of words used in the page.
The only way around the problem is to have two or three web sites. One with the brand name and a few with keywords in the domain. It seems very unfair that a company who was quicker enough to scoop a good domain name that they rank well.
Can Google make if fair for all those web sites that don't have keywords in the domain and score higher for more content! We have to work twice as hard just to compete!
Its seems very messy and a spammy way of doing things!
All my web sites have good content and high popularity but I have to work harder just to compete!
What would be the main problems with Google discounting domain names in anchor text?
In the long term, the keyword domains will suffer because keyword1-keyword2.com is very difficult to remember when there's also keyword2-keyword1.com, e-keyword1-keyword2.com, keyword1-keyword2-uk.com etc. etc. and they will often suffer from looking less reputable than brandname.com.
Don't we all :)
Every business has competition, imagine how dull it would be without any :)
Karl
So wheres the problem? If your sites are highly popular, that's great isn't it?
Assuming I misread you or you're not as popular as you think ;) though, let me move on: What does 'fair' have to do with it?
If I wanted www.kw1-kw2-kw3.com as a domain, how 'fair' would it be to punish me for my choice of domain?
Nick
There was some talk about SEs thinking about "penalizing" multihyphenated keyword domains.
Rather than that old penalize game I would like Google to take a step back and think about simply discounting domain names in anchor text.
Again, where would the problems be with discounting domain names in anchor text?
Think from a search engines perspective, there is only so many things they have the oportunity to rank from. You have how many people link to it, but what about for all the millions of sites that are equil with the links then you have to figure out how they arrage how it shows up, and that is based on keywords to the site, so with the links, with the content, and with the time you too can be at the top ;) I enjoy using keyword domains for sites which are intended to be found on the search engines and branded names for those who do their own marketting and advertising.
Again, where would the problems be with discounting domain names in anchor text?
I can't see one heini, it would seem to be a fairly simple and possibly beneficial thing to do.
Bet it wouldn't make much differnce in the long run though... some problems will always be there: if the competition is above you, you won't be happy!
Nick
Exactly why I think that any minus or bonus point system for keywords in domains are futile and without any merit.
It's in the best interest of SEs and users to get ranked because of relevancy to the query, which has nothing whatsoever to do with domain names.
And for website owners it would simply be the fairest possible solution.
No stupid penalties, no incentives for keyword domains either.
Again, where would the problems be with discounting domain names in anchor text?I can't see one heini, it would seem to be a fairly simple and possibly beneficial thing to do.
Well I can see one. Domains with 2 keywords are pretty straight forward, and easy to remember by visitors. We have a fair amount of users that came to us by simply trying out the domain name. And those two keywords describe exactly what the page is about.
Now if those two keywords were no longer counted for our site, how should we be linked then? A 'competitor' (although our site is non-commercial) with a brandname domain would get a lot more from exactly the same link, than we would. That would be totally unfair. Because with that domain there was no way we could benefit from anchor text, even if the other webmasters were willing to change the anchor text (what could they change it to?).
However now, people with brand-domains can request other webmasters to change their links, and voila they are as good as we are.
;)
we think that there should be some preference given to sites that have been there for some time
Of course you do, you everything to gain from that. And therin lies the problem.
If we all forget about our personal needs and goals for a moment, (as impossible as that might be) would we really be so passionate about this?
No, I dont think so. In one area I compete (poorly, I might add ;)) in the top 5 has a domain with 5-6 hyphenated words. A domain with one 'brand-word' only vaguely related to the industry and several neat one-worders.
It's all about content, optimization and links. The brand name site clearly is good at what they do, their content is not bad either. But the same can be said for the 5-6 hypens site...
Nick
Actually I think that is a very good way of looking at it. Personally I can't stand keyword stuffed domains and if I were running a SE I would apply some sort of penalty to them, even if small. It smells of cheap spam out to make a quick buck. But if they're going to put the time and effort into branding it, making it a good resource, etc., then all the best to them and I have no bias against them.
Keyword stuffing is notorius for fly-by-night sites and if they can prove otherwise, all the best to them. Until then, they should be on "probation" :) Maybe only give them 60% of the pagerank they're entitled to or something....
Oh dear... think about this in the context of 3-4 billion documents to rank...
Nick
I'm just adding a more "human" element to my little algo if I was running a SE :) When people see keyword stuffing, they tend to run in the other direction. So why not give them what they want?
I'm not talking kw1-kw2.com.... I'm talking kw1-kw2...kw5.com sites, where it is borderline rediculous and obvious spam.
It's like insurance companies charging more for a sports car compared to a station wagon. Discrimination is part of life and I would build it into my SE :) If you aren't prepared to pay for more for insurance, and get more speeding tickets in your flashy red ferrari screaming "PULL ME OVER" then don't drive the ferrari :)
If you want to have a keyword stuffed domain, you must first prove you are not a menace to society :)
[edited by: born2drv at 5:23 pm (utc) on May 1, 2003]
Exactly the same way as before. If the link to your site had only the domain name as anchor text, then you would get exactly the same advantage from the link as you brandname competitor: PR.
If the link to your site contained some nice keywords related to your site's topic, then, again you'd get the same advantage as your brandname competitor.
Again, this is not about penalizing keyword domains. That would be a very poor solution.
Domain names should only be judged by users, not by search engines.
Why is it obvious?
You do things you think will get you higher ranking don't you? I certainly do, folks who buy silly domain names are just doing the same.
Guess who's got the most pages of genuine content in my little example above? Yep, the 5-6 kw stuffed domain ;)
Nick
It is almost a guarantee that whatever piece of the algo gets the most attention, its rank will be reduced!
A algarythm has to do with what envokes question or how they deal with it. I've been pulled over enough just for being as sexy as I am and I dont even drive that red car! ;) Its picking out when someones doing something wrong that you dont aprove of :D I have domain names which are a keyword phrase up-two-five-nice-keywords sometimes and I do it because that area of information's domain names are already taken. With millions of domain names taken you cant hold judgements that a site will be doing wrong just because it doesnt meet your domain name structure. If your doing a small directory, if your doing pay per inclusion you have those descripancies at your advantage of running them, but indexing websites with robots you dont really get to play that game very much. I also Have KeywordDomainNamesUpToFive, but what if those are really long words, its a question of how to envoke these rules without kicking out decent sites on the fly which is why your 'Human' Search Engine would work because you'd devote time to including sites :D
heini, I think you've just changed my opinion on this. There seems to be a general view that "-" should not count as " " in link text, but if the domain is blue-fuzzy-widget.com then the site probably sells blue fuzzy widgets. If that's generally the case, then words in domains remain a good indicator of relevance and should be weighted accordingly.
I'm only half playing devils advocate.
Life is seldom fair.
6 years ago I registered a domain that is "brand-keyword" (something like "Ford-Trucks"). It certainly was not for purposes of spam. So, where is the "fairness" in cancelling any advantage it might give me now?
We play a zero sum game with rules that are constantly changing. It is called competition. You roll the dice and take your chances, playing the odds as best as you can. Just because you do not always win does not mean that the game is "unfair". It simply means that your number didn't come up that time. So, you have three choices - quit playing, complain, or roll the dice again.
My mistake 6 years ago is that I did not register the version without the hyphen. So, it sits parked somewhere in Australia with my brand name pointing at porn sites and delivering an endless stream of pop-ups. I refuse to by it at a premium, so I wait patiently for it to lapse so I can scarf it up. Maybe I will be able to snag it back this July? We'll see...
WBF
According to several SE engineers I have spoken with, there is a direct correlation between the total numbers of hyphens in a domain name and the quality of the content. One engineer told me that once you get over two hyphens in a domain, the number of sites that would be considered as spam runs about 90%.
If that's true, then it would make sense for engines (and some already do) to downgrade sites based on the number of hyphens. Of course, there will be babies thrown out with the bathwater, but in the big picture, it would improve results.
The other issue has to do with the spam techniques that usually come with hyphenated domain names. More often than not, a site that is riding high with a keyword domain isn't there because a bunch of webmasters decided to link directly to the domain name rather than include real anchor text.
Instead, they are there because they used automated tools to distribute their url through guestbooks, open logs, discussion forums, etc.
This is a huge issue for Google. And it is an issue that is responsible for a huge chunk of poor quality SERPS.
That being the case, I would think that coming up with a way to nuetralize the impact of those types of strategies would be a top priority.
LOTS. Info sites tend to have domain names with keyowrds in them. And, domain names with keywords in them tends to be relevant to searches for those keywords. Rewarding sites that use keywords in domain names, rather than brands, is a Good Thing for Google.
I would peg it a bit higher than that ;)
The questions we should be asking are this;
are the SE's moving away from on-page criteria?
are the SE's under financial pressures/constraints?
can they make an evaluation of the "quality" of the site by just looking at the domain/extension?
If you answer Yes to all three then hyphenated domains are yesterdays SEO.
Clarify your point? I'd suspect that domain names with more than 2 hyphens are likely mostly spam. However, the vast majority of hyphenated domain names are 2 or 1 hyphens. Thus, the statement "hyphenated domains are yesterdays SEO" doesn't apply to most hyphenated domains if this only means <2 hyphens.
I don't disagree with that, although I feel 2 hyphens is one more than safe.
