Forum Moderators: martinibuster
I am not sure, but doing a study on the stats for one of our web site, I feel like payout percentage has dropped a lot compared to the early days of AdSense.
It would be very much helpful if Google would tell publishers how much percentage they are giving out? (25%, 35%, 50%... or what?)
But that's how all of these ad networds run
I am getting more money from Google, by far, than from any other advertiser or program
Ad selection based upon ROI makes the $10/click advertisers happier with their results and keeps them advertising longer, making Google more $ obviously. My site in the same niche as yours may make far less or far more than yours via Adsense based upon Google's decision to place the higher-paying ads where the ROI is highest.
Danny, do you know any professional seller to bookshops that he doesn't care or know the profit margin of the bookshop and the retail price of his products?
Adsense is not offered only to hobby-websites but as well to professionals that earn their income from this partnership.
Can anybody give me an example of another business deal that one party gets paid just what the other decides to pay based on unknown facts?...
I really cannot understand the business thinking of some friends here! The fact that one is happy with his payments does not make the procedure fair or ethically correct.
PS. I should be considered a happy Adsense partner in terms of revenues but not in terms of a business relationship.
any professional seller to bookshops that doesn't care or know the profit margin of the bookshop and the retail price of his products?
While everyone knows what the "recommended retail price" is, the publisher or distributor will often have little idea what the actual retail price is, as books may be discounted, remaindered, bundled with other books, etc. They can go around shops and check how their books are being sold, of course, and some do, but that's done informally (~ getting an AdWords account and finding out how much some ads cost).
The bigger (~ premium) publishers, who have their own sales reps, can no doubt extract more information from bookshops, but small publishers would get almost no feedback, other than returns (~ alternate ads) if the books don't sell at all.
<<Can anybody give me an example of another business deal that one party gets paid just what the other decides to pay based on unknown facts?...>>
Could you give me a real example for my question?
It's different to sell books and don't know the final retail price and totelly different to RESELL books and don't know your margin and the cost of your purchases. I think Adsense is certainly the 2nd case.
PS. As I already said in a previous thread, I am sure that one day the Competition Committee of US and EU will certainly be "interested" in Adsense practices...
Now if you were getting X/2 from AdNetwork and 10X/50 from Google, then you are actualling making less money in your partnership with Google, As google is getting bigger share of the pie.
What portion of the pie is not relevant. If (using a round number example, not real data) I get a $100 check from network X and a $1000 check from network Y, then I am making far more money from Y. This is even true if X charged $200 and gave me 50% and Y charged $5000 and gave me 20%. When I take my check to the bank, they do not ask me what percentage the split was.
Sure, I am curious about what Google makes. I am also curious about the sweet young woman I talked to by phone at another company. But the only thing I really care about, and the only thing that is really my business, is the size of the check I get.
"You promote some stuff for us. You can commit exactly as much or as little time as you want. You can commit as much or as little 'space' as you want from week to week. You can switch the deal on and off, depending on your mood. Whatever you do, our offer will be available all the time (well almost).
In return we will pay you something, but we won't tell you how we've worked it out. If you don't like it, go and do business with someone else and compare the results".
"You don't need any financial investment, you don't need to have more than x employees, you don't need to have been in business for any length of time, you don't need any track record".
Like many I'm curious to know percentages etc. but I'm more concerned about the effect of disclosure on what appears to be a stable revenue stream and one which it seems can now be controlled a bit better thanks to channels.
It would be nice to think that Google is running the system to reward legitimate efforts by hard-working publishers well. If it broadcast exactly how to be get the best responses and revenue, then wouldn't a minority of publishers would have the information required to systematically milk the system.
And once that happens, yet again the 'rules' will end up constraining the majority because of the minority.
How could that be policed...a list of every single publisher, with an abuse email line to Google, so you could report spammy sites? I can imagine the lawyers rubbing their hands in glee at the prospect of a thousand slander or defamation lawsuits.
The answer, Yump, is: THOUSANDS
I have 4 eestablished deals just for my company although I must admit that we don't earn that much as with Google. If you don't know any, you may drop me an email and I will let you know with pleasure (have you ever thought of reselling any kind of software?).
<<Like many I'm curious to know percentages etc...>>
Who said that people like me who believe that some figures should be disclosed by Google are just... "curious"? Well, Yump, sorry but this is certainly NOT curiosity. I expressed my thought that Adsense reality cannot be considered fair in terms of normal business ethics and possibly competition law.
I understand your concerns about the effects of potential specific terms disclosure and I fully agree that a detailed discussion should be done before any Google's final decision.
I am still impressive by the fact that many friends here cannot understand that the non-disclosure terms of Adsense are breaking the rules of competition for sure and are against the normal business ethics.
This does not mean by anyway that me, you or anybody else should be unhappy with the revenues generated by Google. We should thank them but we are responsible also to report what we think is right in the long-term.
:-) (and I am still a happy Adsense publisher that follows the TOS and still expresses its thoughts on this forum)
PS. I think that the main handle for all these arguments derives from Google's dominance on the net. If Google was not so huge, the revenues would not be so important for us, fraud issues would not be a problem and Adsense figures would certainly be disclosed... But that's what competition is for!
[edited by: aris1970 at 9:52 pm (utc) on Mar. 27, 2004]
So the payout percentages are no doubt strictly relative to the number of conversions your website is creating for the AdWords publisher.
If you don't have enough traffic hitting adwords with conversion code on it to give them a high confidence in their stats, they probably just relegate you to some low payout percentage and ignore you.
This whole discussion is based upon the assumption, that you have to trust your business partners to some degree. Don't think you can't deal with google without a full disclosure of their "private company" information then partner with someone else. Their will always be confidential information your business partners will protect. If you feel this is an unacceptable term of the contract then pass on it.
They lower the average PPC for the Advertisers.
Sorry Aris, I have to disagree with you on this one. If a smaller company came out and offered a similar product to Adsense and did not disclose it's "cut" to publishers I would still try it out to see if it was more profitable than Adsense...Profit is the bottom line, my friend.
If and when Google becomes a publically traded company then it will have to disclose far more information than it currently does. Part of being successful in business is not showing your competition your "Royal Flush". Google is wise and smart to keep certain things secret and I think you'll find that the majority of Adsense publishers don't give too much of a hoot about what their cut is, so long as their cut makes them money and makes good business sense for them...
Dave.
Thanks Dave. I would still try it out for sure!
<<If and when Google becomes a publically traded company then...>>
Although I am not aware of the regulation of the US stock market, I understand your point. My view is that there should be a balance between the "Royal Flush" of a company - which certainly should be kept secret - and the protection of the competition.
What I am really "curious" to see is the 1st publisher or competitor (Overture maybe?) that will have the guts, the money and the interest to question Adsense practice on a state authority in US or EU (maybe after G goes public as you mentioned).
I think this case would make a large topic on this forum too!
Presumably, there's laws surrounding competitive practices and laws of contract which could both be relevant. I am trying to recall instances of disputes in these areas and the only ones that come to mind are things like collaborative price fixing on a fairly major scale for the first and unfair contracts for the second (which often seemed to involve people being tied into long contract periods with no get-out clause).
Don't know what US law says about public companies, but as far as I know in the UK you don't have to publish individual margins for products to anyone. Margin can be derived for the whole business from the accounts.
If Google go public I would personally expect them to have to publish statements that show the total revenue due to AdSense and the total payments to publishers.
I don't think we will get that level of detail. It will probably be total advertising revenue and total paid to partners.
The problem will be that advertising revenue will include that which is earned shown in its SERPS, and "paid to partners" will include the big search engine partners.
If Google go public I would personally expect them to have to publish statements that show the total revenue due to AdSense and the total payments to publishers.
I don't think so. Look at any of the financial statements of publicly owned companies--annual report, 10K, proxy statement, etc. and you will not find out information about particular products or parts of a business. In other, non-internet related business, I have tried to findout about competitors through financial reports. I have never seen any revenue broken down by product or expense that would show what is paid to publishers vs. what is paid for building lease, computer hardware, etc. It is all lumped together.
There is one critical figure that you can find out--just look at the number written on your check.
I am having a publisher account with Google from day one (within the first week of the start of adsense.. I think) and have seen huge(I mean HUGE) ups and downs in the earning for different web site. Now I personally feel Google is to blame here, as their policy of not disclosing the approximate percentage they give out to publishers. Who knows, what they could be doing, instead of their initial plan of giving out 45% to 50%, they might be only giving out 20% with the thougth that there are going to be publishers who don't think from the point of view of business profitability but will just compare their earnings with other Ad Networks, and if Google is paying little more than (in terms of per cpm/cpc) what other Ad Network pays, they will be able to shut them (publishers) up or worst (good for google adsense) make them (publishers who just prefer to compare Adsense with other Network) shout praise for adsense.
Now I am myself a fan of Google & Google AdSense and have recommended Google AdSense to more than 100 webmasters, but now am little worried because of the "What if" question about Google playing with the percentage figure, because if no one knows about it, then they can easily play with it to their benefit.
I agree with your assumption that overall, something is fishey about the Adsense department. We are expected to agree to all kinds of terms and conditions when applying and using adsense, but they can push us around as much as they want, and their is nothing we can do about it.
In the last month, My numbers, like many other peoples, are way down. I am not telling numbers or anything, just a major trend i have seen, and I have been using Adsense for a long time.
I am worried that adsense is heading into the direction of many other ad providers, with little payouts compared to "the good old days" of adsense.
I think we should start a Adsense Union to protect our liberties as loyal publishers who make a great deal of money for Google.
Some Global factors that I think are in play
1. Season
2. Search popularity
3. adwords demand
Some local factors
1. Conversions
2. Traffic volume
3. Site "Quality" (loads of factors there)
I have no other answer to the question, why does CPC vary so much.
My sites have fortunately seen increasing traffic/content/quality which seems to have correlated to steadily improving CPC. Recent alterations I made using channels seem to have compounded the improvements too. I appreciate that my experience is statistically insignificant and somewhat qualitative, but I can't help thinking........
I agree with your assumption that overall, something is fishey about the Adsense department. We are expected to agree to all kinds of terms and conditions when applying and using adsense, but they can push us around as much as they want, and their is nothing we can do about it.
Sure, there is. You can stop running AdSense ads. If you think Google is cheating you, don't let Google profit from your site.
In the last month, My numbers, like many other peoples, are way down. I am not telling numbers or anything, just a major trend i have seen, and I have been using Adsense for a long time.
My numbers are way up, and I've been using AdSense since the beginning. I'd never claim that my own experience is a "major trend," though. It's always a mistake to make broad assumptions based on a limited (and personal) sample.
I am worried that adsense is heading into the direction of many other ad providers, with little payouts compared to "the good old days" of adsense.
See above.
I think we should start a Adsense Union to protect our liberties as loyal publishers who make a great deal of money for Google.
What "liberties"? We have the liberty to dump AdSense at any time. Nobody forced us to sign long-term contracts or give up control of our sites. (And we aren't employees of Google, so talk of organizing an "AdSense union" is pointless.)
It wouldn't be very difficult to put together a string of tests to accurately determine the exact payout percentages. Surely Google has to realize that the cat can't stay in the bag forever.
It could be very difficult, because Google's payout formula may involve any number of factors--and for all we know, the precise combination of those factors could be a moving target.
IMHO, publishers would be better off focusing on their bottom-line revenues (and building quality sites that generate strong revenues) instead of worrying that Google might have its thumb on the scale.
I don't understand why, if you're the sort of person that feels strongly about freedom and rights 'issues', you would choose to enter or continue a business relationship where there were and are a lot of unknowns and where you know that you won't have full control and full knowledge.
I'm not going to tell another publisher what to focus on. Everyone has their own priorities. I'm only stating that if publishers want to know the percentages, there's simple way to figure it out.
Having this knowledge, would it violate the TOS? Sharing this knowledge with business partners, would that violate the TOS?
Let me rephrase that. It would be pathetically easy to determine the percentage, by implementing a simple plan.
You're assuming that there's a percentage. In reality, there could be any number of percentages, since it's unlikely that Google's payout formula is a flat percentage split.
Through methodical testing, return can be demonstrated. I deal in facts, not FUD.
Here are my 2 cents worth
If Google are taking a higher percentage or change the rules market forces will come into play as more competitors enter the fray of contextual advertising to content sites so I do not believe its in Google interests to decrease percentages to publishers beyond the point where new entrants could enter and gain market share , some of the possible future players include
Overture
MSN
CJ / Befree / Valueclick
I do not know the market figures but feel that some of the current affiliate marketing companies could have seen some dent in market share and may need to re invent themselves of diversify
As many have said on here if you are not happy with your adsense income find alternative
I am happy with my current adsense and will continue untill I think i can earn more with alternative sources
steve
