"ZOMBIE TRAFFIC" Separating fact from fiction & emotion

[FishingDad]

This recent discussion about "ZOMBIE TRAFFIC" is just utter nonsense. What are people saying, anything worth while or just a communal <snip> because sales are down on the norm? The talk is firmly in the tin foil hat area.

Are you talking about SERPs, if so why, if your positions are dropping then that's that. If positions not dropping are you seriously saying Google is sending you people they know will not buy from you !? REALLY?!

Are you talking about PAY PER CLICK? if so then your talking possible click fraud then, aren’t you?

Giving any constant period on the internet, people buy or they don't buy and there's many many factors why they will one day and might not the next day.

[edited by: goodroi at 5:55 pm (utc) on Nov 10, 2015]
[edit reason] Let's be careful to keep the discussion on a professional level [/edit]

[Simon_H]

I think a lot of things get attributed to 'zombie' traffic that aren't. I don't mean to suggest they're any less important, just that they're not what is generally talked about as zombie traffic. Declining sales, gradually increasing CPCs, etc are not zombies. I also can't see how bots can be zombies because they would sit on top of existing traffic, so conversions shouldn't be affected. Even if Google enforces traffic quotas, bots still wouldn't cause such a major drop in conversions as many people see. I think Google mismatching traffic is a more likely explanation, but I could very easily be wrong.

@ecommerceprofit Let's not talk law firms quite yet. As we've established, no-one has properly discussed this with Google. Yes, many of us have raised it with our individual adwords reps/account managers, but without meaning to be offensive, those guys are not in a position to understand or escalate wide-ranging algo issues. JM is a nice guy and really helpful. If he is asked politely and respectfully, I'm sure he will be able to help.

[ecommerceprofit]

Simon_H. I like everything you are saying so I agree with you regarding law firms!

[mrengine]

Let's not talk law firms quite yet. As we've established, no-one has properly discussed this with Google. Yes, many of us have raised it with our individual adwords reps/account managers, but without meaning to be offensive, those guys are not in a position to understand or escalate wide-ranging algo issues. JM is a nice guy and really helpful. If he is asked politely and respectfully, I'm sure he will be able to help.

Simon your interest in the subject of zombies, and level headedness, is to be commended. However, there are no contacts within Google that we as businesses can air our grievances. Speaking with Adwords representatives and account managers yields no results, which has been proven by a number of people including myself. Some have lost hundreds of dollars in zombie clicks and others have lost thousands. And there are those who are not in Adwords who receive absolutely no support at all, which I can understand to some degree as it would be humanly impossible for any company to support free services on an ever growing internet. Pinning our hopes that JM will receive, answer our question and escalate it to the powers that be seems like a long stretch. I've been waiting almost a half year for this zombie thing to clear up, and it hasn't. Google does not support their product at all, and out of this whole zombie mess that has become quite clear. Apparently they want to operate with impunity because it is more profitable for them that way, but such actions understates their large role in the digital economy and the livelihoods of many people. While retaining a law firm may not be the best course of action at this moment, I don't see how Google can be compelled to address the problem any other way. To this date, the problem has been ignored by everyone employed by Google I have spoken with. Will JM be any different? I guess someone will have to ask him the zombie question to find out. Is anyone planning on doing that?

[Selen]

I read on another forum that on the official Google Products Forum (productforums.google.com) frequently post one of the brightest minds of the web / IT / legal issues (including Google's top engineers), so maybe if someone comes up with a professionally-sounding letter, it will be taken seriously and answered accordingly.

[Simon_H]

@mrengine We spend $thousands per week on Google paid, so I am very keen to get this sorted! And, yes, I'm planning on asking JM some questions on this at the next Hangout. It was me that asked him the questions at the Hangout earlier today that have been written up on SER and SEMPost. John always seems willing to help out as best he can if people are polite and respectful. And given this has been talked about for the last 5 years, I hope that waiting another couple of weeks until the next Hangout isn't going to be too bad.

[tangor]

Google does not support their product at all, and out of this whole zombie mess that has become quite clear.

Hate to be the one to say it, but there is no compelling reason for g to change at this time. Expect more of the same. The only thing that will change their ways is if abandonment for another product/market (or striking out on their own) becomes commonplace.

Big biz moves glacially. This is big biz .. and contrary to global warming warnings, this particular biz is very much frozen ... and not to everyone's benefit.

[Ohno2]

Good God. Do you people never learn?! JM the new MC! I have to laugh at the posts on here. Not ONE of you (apart from netmeg) claims to do anything that impacts a site in a positive manner. I wonder why? Where's editorial guy? His site is so shat no wonder he is doing well. Google is KILLING you. Most are too scared to link (well done Matt). Content?! Yeah OK. GOOD GOD. Wake up. If Google say do X do Y! Is Amazon HTTPS?!

[Simon_H]

@tangor I don't know if this zombie stuff is intentional, unintentional, a bug/byproduct that Google is struggling to fix, our sites have been inadvertently targeted, etc. I do agree that Google won't change. But the fact is that some sites suffer big time from low quality traffic being switched in and out and others don't, either because they don't notice it or don't care. I'd like to find out how to move into the 'it doesn't seem to affect me much' bunch.

@Ohno2 Check your meds.

[aristotle]

Here's a simple theory for zombie traffic:

-- Google identifies the most likely buyers = people who know what they want and are ready buy. For example, if the search term includes the word "buy" or "purchase", and/or a specific product or service is named, and/or the person has a history of making a lot of online purchases.

-- Google sends these identified likely buyers to certain favored sites.

-- Other sites receive the normal traffic except for likely buyers. This traffic doesn't convert because the likely buyers have been filtered out.

-- In other words, zombie traffic is normal traffic with the likely buyers removed.

[Ohno2]

@ Simon H, no checking required, I was one of the first to identify "zombie traffic" YEARS ago.

[masterjoe]

aristotle I think that's definitely a possibility. Although I highly doubt it for 2 reasons.

1.) For people who are searching keywords related to your website (and haven't previously searched it), it would bring up the standard set of results which aren't "personalized". When i search for keywords or searches relating to something I have searched previously, i get websites that may be vaguely related to the topic of results I got previously.

2.) It doesn't explain why adwords users are seeing substantial drops in conversions either.

I am very hopeful in pinning this on some Penguin testing, because these changes are absolutely ridiculous,. I haven't seen conversions so low for so long across multiple websites before. This is either click fraud or testing, hoping it's the latter. Although it would be very very silly to mess with their money making system.

[aristotle]

masterjoe -- Thanks for your reply. But judging by your comments, I think you mis-understood most of what I said. Actually personilized results and repeat searches fit into the theory quite well. And the theory can also explain what adwords users have reported.

[Simon_H]

@aristotle It's a good theory, but there are two things that don't make sense to me. (1) Why would Google do this in an on/off manner where traffic quality is good, then suddenly switches to poor, then good again, etc? Surely they would keep traffic consistent to avoid suspicion. And (2) This would be quite easy to measure. You could set up several users in a similar location (to avoid geo targetting) but with different buying histories, get them to run the same queries and look for obvious prejudice in results. So, again, I don't think Google would risk being discovered.

Either way, I don't personally think it matters if it's intentional or it's unintentional and being ignored. It's not something that Google is going to suddenly fix. I want to understand how to get on the list of 'favoured' sites, as you put it. We're a Google certified shop, 94% positive customer feedback, pay Google lots of money. I can't see any reason why Google would not want to be passing us great quality traffic. I have to assume there is something we can do to resolve this.

@Ohno2 Simply meant that your comment was incomprehensible, not necessarily wrong.

[aristotle]

Simon_H -- Google might occasionally send some likely buyers to less-favored ecommerce sites in order to barely keep them alive.. Google might do this because it needs places to send the junk hard-to-match traffic that makes up a large part of all traffic and that it doesn't know what else to do with. This would explain why it turns on and off.

As for "suspicions", I doubt that google much cares what anybody suspects, since it would be so hard to prove anything of this nature.

[ecommerceprofit]

Again, I want to be 100% sure everyone understands that I have nothing against run down areas with high crime rates. Just because someone lives in this area does not make them a person committing a crime. However, the rates are higher in these areas.

I think I may go to the center of my local metropolitan area which is about 1 hour from me and surf the web for my web site during heavy zombie days. Perhaps I'll ask a few people to surf the web for me from their phones and pay them some cash for the privilege...perhaps surf from a Starbucks or hotel with a computer or library...then on the same day surf from places with super low crime rates.

I wonder if this would be a good experiment to test the theories above. I really think this is a possibility...and "part" of the equation. This experiment could be totally baseless because we do have some really nice customers from these areas and horrible ones from low crime areas...I just know our attempted fraud rate goes up during zombie periods and are generally from these areas.

[ecommerceprofit]

For a while my zombie traffic seemed to be gone - others sort of reported the same thing. For past few days zombie traffic is back - had to turn off shopping ads - ROI too low after a good run on fair and normal ad ROI. Here's another theory...

Perhaps Google is testing returning results of e-commerce searchers who are signed into Google. Only users who are signed in...Google knows their personality, habits, likes, dislikes, etc. so it's natural for them to test. I am convinced that my site has been beamed up to Google's mother ship and me along with other victims are tested...then beamed back down to Earth and the tests stop. Us victims tell everyone else on Earth and they think we are crazy. haha

My son wants to see a soccer game in the city...perhaps I should try my other theory from April tonight...my fraud attempt rate is much higher these past few days too.

[ecommerceprofit]

I am getting a TON of fraud attempts while zombies are super high. Advertising is still turned off. I am convinced this is coming from users signed into Google while shopping. Google is sending me their worst of their worst customers...the bottom of the barrel...their algorithm is smothering me again. I really thought I was out of their grip but not anymore. I wonder if I am the last one? I see no one complaining anymore...

I think aristotle is correct. I think we have this figured out...I only hope I'm not in this alone now.

[edited by: ecommerceprofit at 4:12 am (utc) on May 22, 2016]

[glakes]

No zombies on Amazon. Sales have been fantastic on Amazon and growing month over month. The garbage Google sends anymore makes me laugh. The reason why I laugh is because Google is sending their buying users to substandard products (I've evaluated my competitors products closely). Granted, maybe Google will make more money this way, but their users won't be happy when the junk they are buying breaks in no time and they then go to Bing, Yahoo or Amazon and still buy my products in the end.

The Google zombie trend I have been seeing since last year has not changed. One or two days of sales from Google and the rest of the days pure garbage. I'm making more money by not spending a dime on Adwords and am no longer trying to isolate a technical website problem to explain away Google's manipulation and greed.

[ecommerceprofit]

Good to see I'm not alone still regarding zombies! Glad you are happy with Amazon...good to see competition to keep Google honest. You know how I feel about Amazon (I hate them so much...my life is less stressful without Amazon even with zombies) but I'm happy you have found success :-)

[masterjoe]

I've had excellent conversions this week. However, I have been acquiring links and have had substantial increases in traffic over the last few weeks. I believe my conversions are a result of the traffic, and doesnt necessarily reflect my usual conversion rate... I still have zombies, but at the very least there is some action happening. This across a number of different websites.

[ionguy]

@masterjoe
this gives some hope but lets wait and see

[glakes]

@ecommerceprofit

How you feel about Amazon is how I feel about Google. I spent many tens of thousands of dollars with Google Adwords over the years only to get screwed very hard in the end. Dumping Adwords, which was costing me a fortune, and moving to Amazon worked out well for the short term. When there are few oligopolies controlling commerce, one has to go to the one that leaves them with the most scraps after the sale. For me, Amazon is the right fit.

IMO, most of what others are seeing here (improved conversions) is a continuation of the zombie trend - depleting Adwords accounts with fake clicks. Yes, the days in which "normal" conversions may be happening is longer, so shall the days of zombies. I'm glad I am done with that #*$!. Google is perpetuating a massive level of fraud and few will accept it. That's the power of psychology: making everyone think they have a problem with their site (Panda, Penguin, etc.) when in fact the only problem is Google's dominance combined with their greed.

[samwest]

I wonder if I am the last one? I see no one complaining anymore...

We are likely all seeing the same thing...I think many like even myself are tired of whipping this dead horse. The issue remains tho.

[Jez123]

I saw really good conversions at the start of the week, getting less strong as it went on to nothing at all on Friday and one order only over the weekend. So, from what was a record week from just the orders placed at the start of the week to NOTHING! It just screams odd to me.

[Simon_H]

I know some had thought the zombies had gone away, but I don't think it's that simple. I had confirmation from John Mueller that our site has a very serious backlink issue, i.e. Penguin. I do think the on/off zombie phenomenon on organic is what sites see that are heavily reliant on the long tail; Google is permanently playing with the long tail for various reasons, e.g. testing, Rankbrain training, whatever. A severely Penguin-hit site is going to have a good chunk of the money keywords filtered out, hence much more exposure to the noisy long tail. So, from an organic point of view, the focus has to be on recovery from whatever algorithmic filter Google has applied.

We also see the zombie phenomenon very heavily on Google shopping. That's something I can't ask John about. It's extremely common for Google Shopping to show mismatched results; just type in something mildly ambiguous and Google Shopping regularly gets it wrong, especially on the PLAs on the standard result page where you'll often see a couple of good matches and then some poor matches alongside. We already have multiple cases raised with Google where we can show products behaving completely unexpectedly in the auction, e.g. avg CPCs trending in the wrong direction contrary to CTR, Google suddenly starts dropping individual products into more and more (wrong) auctions at an exponentially increasing rate, etc. The response from Google reps around these is either they can't explain what is happening and refuse to comment further, or they put it down to the algorithm 'learning'. I'll keep posting updates on this.

[Jez123]

@Simon_H - did you know that you had a backlink issue? I know that my site has been affected by Penguin and have managed to get at least a partial recovery in October '14. I was wondering if it's something to do with Penguin testing.

[Simon_H]

@Jez123 Yes, I was fairly sure we'd been hit by Penguin, but we've also been hit by Panda and my main focus had been on the Panda side as I didn't think the backlink issue was that bad; we haven't done any manipulative linkbuilding for 3.5 years and most sites don't exist any more! But I asked John a favour before the Hangout started and he very kindly looked up our site on his penalty console, and said our main issue was we had a major backlink problem. So my focus has now switched to that.

I obviously don't know for sure, but I don't think the zombie phenomenon is pure Penguin testing. I think it's more likely that sites hit by filters (Penguin, possibly Panda) and/or rely on the long tail for whatever reason are simply seeing Google playing with the long tail which they might do for multiple reasons on an ongoing basis.

[Jez123]

So Simon, you think that it's rankbrain or whatever somehow messing with longtail results and that as Penguin or Panda affected might be more reliant on those queries that it's more noticeable? Sounds plausible.

Out of interest, is your traffic remaining at similar levels throughout? Mine is but I have noticed too that repeat visitors are way down. Probably due to not been very well targeted and not interested in the product. Do you see this?

[Simon_H]

@Jez123 Yes, it is remaining at similar levels. It feels like we're locked into a traffic quota; not saying that we are, but it does feel that way. Although we did have a small drop (paid and organic) starting around 3rd May, which was straight after the bank holiday weekend when traffic peaked. Again, almost like Google is compensating.

[Jez123]

But are you noticing a lack of repeat visits or is that not something that your visitors would do anyway? Mine tend to see my site, have a look around on other sites and then come back and buy. I am not seeing that - a distinct lack of repeat visitors.