Why I read this forum

[tangor]

I'm currently tracking G SEO to find out what's "wrong" (Panda, the new filters, the changes in algo...and all the complainers who haven't been following all the Panda, the new filters, the changes in algo...) because I've moved on to other products which serve me, personally, better than the big G.

No uglies intended to G, no animosity to this forum, just have moved on... but at the same time I'm not going to NOT look on the back trail to see what G is doing and how the webmaster community is fairing. I might have moved on, but I'm still very active in what IS going on. Hence I am a current reader and will remain one... there's gold in them thar hills...

This is not a slam thread, nor a migrate to another money thing, just a reminder to all that while there may be more than one way to skin a cat, one has to get the cat first then determine which of those ways for skinning is most appropriate. G works for many, the majority, other methods work for others. And many of those others who have "moved on" aren't paying attention to G might do will eventually wake with regrets some day. That said, dear hearts, I'm here. Still read. But can we not shut down the whine and complain, the bash and trash, the poor me I been screwed commentary?

As the wymins on one of the Early Shows on American Network TV once said (last Wednesday): "Put on your big girl panties" and let's deal with realities biz.

Leave the whine at the door, or buy me a beer and I'll listen...

Consider this a public service plea (and put your big girl panties on and get serious about SOLUTIONS to current PROBLEMS).

[SanDiegoFreelance]

For every site that has moved down there is a site that has moved up. The people who moved down always make the most noise those who move up want to remain off the radar screen.

I'm in agreement with the ... moved on ... strategy; But I would put it differently; "don't chase the dog's tail" Instead of following the current algos and limit the creation of content to the algo of the day. Build meaty content and let google do the hard work. Use proper semantics and structure to allow google to discern page content and importance.

That being said - looking at the forest - when I do research on google I am left with a question ... where is the beef? Seems many scientific long tail searches are not working so well at this moment; To much local content, to little results for materials that reference the agreed on set of facts, to much hypocrisy over thin content or aggregate content - and a Google ego that their robot is better than humans at sorting content hence don't show human sorted content. ... not whining I know how to use bing.com; just a PC uncorrect observation.

[walkman]

For every site that has moved down there is a site that has moved up. The people who moved down always make the most noise those who move up want to remain off the radar screen.

Sometimes for 1000 sites that went down, Amazon, Wikipedia or Walmart went up in rank so it's not always one to one. When known brands are purposefully promoted, small sites get screwed.

[falsepositive]

For every site that has moved down there is a site that has moved up. The people who moved down always make the most noise those who move up want to remain off the radar screen.

Sometimes for 1000 sites that went down, Amazon, Wikipedia or Walmart went up in rank so it's not always one to one. When known brands are purposefully promoted, small sites get screwed.

Or for sites that went down, their scrapers and other spammers went up. There also many old sites that are no longer maintained that gained in rank and have taken the place of actively maintained small businesses.

[Reno]

Seems many scientific long tail searches are not working so well at this moment

This, IMO, is the number 1 problem that many of us are facing. We have seen that Panda-Google favors the big sites ~ that has been observed over and over, here and elsewhere. So if someone goes to G and types in "widgets", I understand that Walmart or eBay or Amazon are probably going to dominate. I can even live with them getting "round widgets".

But if someone types in "round orange widget from 1955", that's where a little guy with a good site should have an equal shot with the big brand players. And yet, as SanDiegoFreelance and so many others have noted, that's not the case any longer. Long tail at Google is not working the way it used to ~ by accident or by design.

And frankly, I see no logic in surpressing long tail ~ if anything, it speaks to a more sophisticated web surfer, someone who knows what they are looking for. I would think that Google would want to encourage that kind of exact thinking.

I'm convinced that many of us would see better traffic numbers if they could restore that aspect of their algo to a more prominent position. But when "round orange widget from 1955" mostly brings back the big brands in the top spots, we're mostly dead.

........................

[tedster]

That's a very astute observation, Reno

Long tail at Google is not working the way it used to ~ by accident or by design.

One of the characteristics of a "content farm" is that their strategy intentionally aims at long tail queries. The bigger operations even have their own algorithm for how to rank a page on a given long tail term, and how to create a variation on that page to rank for a slightly different version.

So it wouldn't surprise me at all if there is some Panda factor aiming at the long tail "by design". Not necessarily to hurt small businesses per se, but because that's where a lot of junk pages actually live.

-----

And now I'm guilty of dragging this thread off-topic. Every thread ends up discussing Panda, it seems, and that's part of the issue that I think moved tangor to start this thread.

I read (and moderate) this forum for many of the same reasons tangor gave. I work with some sites who no longer have any care about what Google does or doesn't do. They've evolved a different way of thriving online. But many sites I work with still need Google search to work for them. And Google Search has become a very complex entity.

I value the professional discussions here, and they help me - as I hope I help others. And in periods of upheaval, I understand that feeling run high, especially when livelihoods are threatened. So as a moderator I often allow some leeway from our normal policies during those times.

But listening to gripes and bashes is definitely NOT why I'm here. Listening to fanboy praise is also not it. I've been here since Brett bought the domain name - and I stick around for high quality professional discussion and analysis. The rest of it is not helpful.

[Reno]

The rest of it is not helpful.

It is borne of frustration and fear ~ frustration in trying to do things right, only to see others who are obviously doing things wrong outrank us on a regular basis; fear of what that inevitably leads to, which can be summed up in 3 little words: "loss of income". And we all know that if the loss is too great, everything changes, and usually not for the better.

I tell my wife several times a year how difficult it is to work in a vacuum, with little real understanding of what is happening to others. When my visitor count drops, is that happening to anyone else? When my sales drop, is it only me? Or is it the economy at large (which by any definition is tenuous right now)? or are others doing pretty well even when I'm not? It's hard to figure that out when I sit at a keyboard and can easily go hours (sometimes days) at a time without even seeing another human being.

So in additon to learning from others & sharing what we discover, people come here to vent, in part because it's therapeutic, in part because we're looking to find out if there's any company in this misery. Because as often as not, many of us are working in the dark, and in the dark, it's hard to see.

I hope you can ignore the rants, and see them for what they are. Personally, I'm at a point where I'd be thrilled with an entirely new category: "Prospering Without Google", with no venting allowed ... speaking for myself, I'm ready to move on.

...............................

[Planet13]

Long tail at Google is not working the way it used to ~ by accident or by design.

But was this really caused by Panda, or was this caused by MayDay, and amplified by Scraper and Panda updates(which most people who have analyzed think have given a boost to "authority" in the SERPs), and exacerbated by autosuggest?

Matt Cutts said the MayDay update was squarely designed at making it harder for sites to rank for the longtail. Do we have a handle yet on what was changed for MayDay? It's been a year on now, and if we still aren't sure what changed then, it means it could be a year or more before people figure out what really changed in Panda.

[shallow]

Leave the whine at the door, or buy me a beer and I'll listen...

I wouldn't buy you a beer, or even give you a plug nickle.

Consider this a public service plea (and put your big girl panties on and get serious about SOLUTIONS to current PROBLEMS).

Oh, give me a break.

You work on a site for almost a decade, writing good content, spending money and a humongous amount of time improving the design, writing unique content, playing by all the adsense rules, writing good content; ad layout recommendation by the AdSense Optimation team members followed, writing good content, etc.

Then one day you wake up, and out of nowhere, your income and traffic dive more than 50% down.

Since you're doing so well, and good for you, how about giving those of us who have been collateral damage to Panda a list of "SOLUTIONS to current PROBLEMS."

Surely you must know. Please, tell us whiners who are struggling to keep their heads above water. Oh, and the Panda update, has negatively effected other associate programs, just not Adsense.

[shallow]

tedster, some of us frequent these forums, but don't live and breathe them every day. Like so many, we come here for help and advice and to learn. In the wake of Panda, this is a critical time for many.

I wish you'd start a sticky note thread which lists and continually updates some of the effective things people are doing that have improved their situation. It's difficult to scour through hundreds of long threads with bits and pieces of information scattered throughout and are often difficult to find.

What really works, what does not?

Such an thread could be entitled, say, "Solutions to current Panda problems."

Now, that would be helpful.

[TheMadScientist]

Since you're doing so well, and good for you, how about giving those of us who have been collateral damage to Panda a list of "SOLUTIONS to current PROBLEMS."

It starts with looking at the situation objectively, and some of us have tried to put the situation in perspective on a number of occasions, but end up getting slammed for our comments ... Personally, I've been called a 'fanboy' and then some, but it seems those doing the slamming and name calling have forgotten these threads: [webmasterworld.com...] [webmasterworld.com...] [webmasterworld.com...] (Yeah, I started all of those.)

In this thread: [webmasterworld.com...] I commented on JohnMu's statement about how recovery can and will take time, but my favorite troll wanted to come by and argue the about how long time is rather than realizing there's a difference in how some of us look at things, which, in light of this recent thread: [webmasterworld.com...] it seems has some merit.

If you would really like advice from those of us who weren't hit, then the BS needs to slow down, and the anger needs to be curbed a bit, especially by those who have been around since pre-florida, read and ignored all the warnings about not depending on Google for a living, because they've had every opportunity to make sure that wasn't the case and rather than taking action they let themselves get stuck in that situation ... Whether Google's right or wrong, broken or not, they've had plenty of time to expand well beyond the Google handouts for their income ... I really think some of the loudest complainers have no one to blame for their situation except themselves, and a mirror-check would probably do more good than all the ranting in the world, because until they take the position Reno has and decided to move on, they're really not helping their situation at all.

Any wagers on how how long it takes for me to get trolled for this post too?

[suggy]

I'm with Tangor. Reading one whiny moan after another is a waste of time. It's a complete waste of time writing it too.

Everyone crying foul over this latest twist in the Google saga (ie Panda) should remember:

"Live by the sword, die by the sword."

And, yes, my site has been decimated by Panda and my income quartered after 7 years of tireless hardwork. But, I accept that's the risk I take in what I do. Google owes none of us anything.

[netmeg]

I'm with TMS. I've got a whole slew of theories about what's working and what isn't but the incentive to contribute any further has gone right down the toilet with all the bashing and anthropomorphic conspiracy hatching (not to mention personal attacks) that go on here now. I understand that everyone's site is 100% perfect in their eyes, and that people are hurting, but there are also people who have gained bigtime, and guess what, they're not *all* Amazon, Walmart, and scraping miscreants.

NONE of us are so expert we don't have lots to learn, from what Google is saying and doing, and from each others' experiences, but it's getting pretty damned difficult to find the signal amongst the noise.

Things change. You can cling to whatever you've been doing the past eight or ten years and quite possibly go down with the ship, or you can shut up about how much Google sucks and how they're penalizing sites as a power play or for pure pleasure, and figure out how to make yourself more Google-proof. And maybe that means not only your site changes but your business model changes. So what? It's the world we live in. It's going on three months now. It's not going to magically get better.

[Shaddows]

+1 tangor, +1 TMS, +1netmeg

Signal to noise is dropping, personal comments are increasing, willingness to listen to others is at an all time low.

Posting anything about Googles positive intentions (negative impact notwithstanding) means you get called a fanboy. Given I've been a Google-sceptic since well before I joined here, it's just grating.

[shallow]

Whether Google's right or wrong, broken or not, they've had plenty of time to expand well beyond the Google handouts for their income ...

OK, complain about the complaining; but while doing so why not have an attitude check. Handouts?!

I really think some of the loudest complainers have no one to blame for their situation except themselves, and a mirror-check would probably do more good than all the ranting in the world,

Through the years, I've used (and paid) two highly-skilled, knowledgeable web developers and designers to work on my site and advise. Last year, I paid a well-known consultant for a site review and implemented the majority of the recommendations.

So why tell someone like me to get a mirror check?! Have done everything known to god and webman; until Panda hit like an earthquake followed by a tsunami.

Saying all this, I get the main point of this thread, so I will shut my virtual mouth about how Panda has effected my site. But I do hope Google reps have been reading some of our posts.

[TheMadScientist]

Through the years, I've used (and paid) two highly-skilled, knowledgeable web developers and designers to work on my site and advise. Last year, I paid a well-known consultant for a site review and implemented the majority of the recommendations... Have done everything known to god and webman; until Panda hit like an earthquake followed by a tsunami.

And you Completely Missed the point I was making, which was to Move Away from search engine dependence! That's one of the problems with bothering to post here ... People don't seem to read for comprehension, but rather for argument...

So why tell someone like me to get a mirror check?!

Because if you weren't dependent on search engines, and specifically Google, for an income, you probably wouldn't care too much about Panda, or at least you would have sustainable income without Google's traffic ... I've read here eHow only generates 28% of it's revenue from Google traffic, yeah, a loss would hurt, but they're not going to close shop because of it ... That's the difference between a website and a business, imo, and it's the warning people have been ignoring for years.

If you (or anyone) really can't have a site without Google then how important is it to people? Think about it for a minute...

Here's a short version of the warning that's been posted here for years: USE GOOGLE (and search engines in general), but don't depend on a 3rd party that owes no one a ranking for your livelihood.

[tedster]

What really works, what does not?

There is no one I know of reporting recovery - so all we have is ideas and experiments. And most of the advice you read or pay for is coming from consultants who are in the same boat. All there is right now is ideas, not demonstrated results.

Also note, since Panda version 1 rolled out, there have been scores of OTHER changes in Google's algorithm. The changes in traffic being reported (either up or down) may well be because of that. The beat goes on, in other words.

The reason to read and participate in this forum is to listen to that ongoing beat, and then compare our notes about its rhythm with others so that we're not working in isolation. That's it and that's all.

[SanDiegoFreelance]

Through the years, I've used (and paid) two highly-skilled, knowledgeable web developers and designers to work on my site and advise. Last year, I paid a well-known consultant for a site review and implemented the majority of the recommendations.

I do not need to imagine how many sites have been effected. [npr.org...] Google has been fairly consistent with what sites need for a long time and there has not been the need for the vast majority of people to vary their methods.

Old google major competitor has been bing.com and they gained around 30% of the market. Now old google has closed and a new search engine panda.com has taken their space - metaphorically speaking.

Old google was good to me; so far panda.com seems to want to provide me with local visitors. I'll take them and be grateful. I'm at a loss on getting national exposer with a new / small sites on panda. I've got some ideas, (satire) instead of product descriptions write poetry (/satire), for uniqueness of content.

[tangor]

I wouldn't buy you a beer, or even give you a plug nickle.

Works for me!

Since you're doing so well, and good for you, how about giving those of us who have been collateral damage to Panda a list of "SOLUTIONS to current PROBLEMS."

Already indicated my "solutions" in that I no longer rely on Google... hence any advice in that regard is no "solution" to google-related "problems".

Only thing I asked was a reduction in the noise of "poor me" and rants against Panda... tedster has nailed most of the current efforts correctly: many experiments, many heads working on same, and little real value/results to show at the moment as G seems to be folding in MORE changes to panda...

These threads might be more useful if the angst, animosity, and anger toward Google... or those who offer opinions which don't include a magic bullet solution aren't flamed for having spoken up. Just asking for more civility, professionalism, and commonsense. Panda is more complex than any G algo change yet seen. It will take joint EFFORT to reverse engineer how it works... Groups work much better when personalities are left at the door.

As a final observation: if anyone truly DOES figure out how to undo the damage Panda has done it is very UNLIKELY they will share that info in public... it would be against their better interest and income. BUT, if we (as webmasters) see that someone has accomplished that goal, it wouldn't take all that much to figure out what they did.

My best advice? Other revenue streams that do NOT rely on any search engine. Return to existing generators (as used by B&M, News, Radio, TV, Local) and diversify. Putting all eggs in one basket generally results in ONE very large omelet and little to eat after that...