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Black hat seems to win over my two month old site



5:03 pm on Apr 16, 2010 (gmt 0)

10+ Year Member

Hello, we have a website where I'm pretty sure we have done all the necessary on site optimization. Titles, Alt tags, headers, keyword density, etc. We have submitted the website to many relative sites and directories and got some really good links from relative sites with high PR. We have created a blog and keep on adding good relative content.

However after two months, all i see in the first 20 results is sites that are spamming the title tag, and have done very little in terms of content building and optimizing elements such as images, headers etc. The big difference is that (according to Yahoo Site Explorer) they have thousands of links! Most of them are reciprocal and from link farms!

What should one do in that case? Should we wait more? Is there a chance that the current situation will change, or should we follow our competitors' techniques?

Thanks in Advance


5:18 pm on Apr 16, 2010 (gmt 0)

WebmasterWorld Senior Member 5+ Year Member Top Contributors Of The Month

For competitive keywords/phrases it usually takes much longer than two months reach a top-20 ranking.


5:42 pm on Apr 16, 2010 (gmt 0)

WebmasterWorld Senior Member 10+ Year Member

I concur with aristotle -- it's likely that you will slowly move up over time if you continue adding good content and continue getting quality backlinks. It is frustrating seeing these other people benefit from their particular approach, and of course you want to see a ROI for your time/expenses, but in my observations, if you now begin flirting with black hat techniques, you'll lose in the long run (assuming you are building your site for the LONG run). Also, you may see a quicker SERP ascension for longtail queries for your listings than shorter popular/competitive phrases, especially if you have original content that is well written. Start keeping a weekly log of the most important queries that get you the best traffic, and see if in the coming months your positions improve ... patience & perseverance are the key.



6:16 pm on Apr 16, 2010 (gmt 0)

WebmasterWorld Administrator lifeinasia is a WebmasterWorld Top Contributor of All Time 5+ Year Member Top Contributors Of The Month

However after two months,

I agree- 2 months is not very long, especially for competitive keywords.

I think some perspective might be in order. How many thousands (if not millions) of other listings are there for that particular search term? Of those thousands (or millions) of pages, what percentage of those webmasters have also "done all the necessary on site optimization" on their sites? How many of them started more than 2 months ago?

With only 20 spots on the first page, it is impossible for the hundreds (or thousands) of sites doing the exact same thing as you to get to page 1.


7:04 pm on Apr 16, 2010 (gmt 0)

WebmasterWorld Senior Member themadscientist is a WebmasterWorld Top Contributor of All Time 5+ Year Member Top Contributors Of The Month

I think another thing to keep in mind is 'the faster the rise, the faster the drop' can also apply... The sites I've built that do best didn't rank well initially, and certainly not after a few (couple) months.

There's two different approaches IMO: Try to build sites to rank today, knowing they could tank tomorrow, hope you get there, and can keep repeating the process... Build a site that takes longer to rank, but is a truly useful site and maybe even one 'people expect to see' in the results eventually.

One way leads to the more immediate gain, but I've had quite a bit of success building sites for the longer term, and one of the (many) reasons I stick with the approach I use is I don't particularly enjoy redoing the same thing over and over and over, and building a single site that 'takes care of itself' (basically) takes more time initially, but once it's done and running I can do something different while it gains speed... IOW: One of the reasons I don't spam is because it's too much repetitive work for me to be interested in doing...

I've seriously looked into the idea of creating a bunch of 'cookie cutter' sites, but it's just too much work IMO. Would you rather know you have to keep building, adjusting, changing approaches, retiring domains, buying new ones, setting them up, promoting them, and likely doing it for years on end, or spend your time building a high quality site knowing it will stand the test of time? Personally, I'd rather build a site once rather than having to keep redoing my work to maintain my income, but I'm a bit nutty, so as usual take it with a grain of salt.


8:18 pm on Apr 16, 2010 (gmt 0)

WebmasterWorld Senior Member 10+ Year Member

2 months is very short period and it is hard to await miracles. Account at least a year if you're in a competitive niche.
I think the best way to go during the first year of website's existence is to build as good link base as possible. I mean: try to get as many great links as possible before you decide for lower-quality links.
Low quality links in big numbers will help but first the site must be trusted. If there is no trust large amounts won't help.


2:10 am on Apr 17, 2010 (gmt 0)

10+ Year Member

It took me years to get to page 1 for my most important keyword on one site but now there I'm as solid as a rock. Google updates, changes to my site, new competition, nothing seems to bother this site, it is just rock solid.

But along the way i got impatient and engaged the services of an SEO expert. They did something dodgy and i was banned within a month.

It was only pure luck and my obvious naivety that got me out of it. I'm not sure if it is possible to get in contact with someone these days at Google the way i did back then, i remember it was considered very lucky back then so no way would i risk black hat techniques.

Would i use a seo'er again, for sure, but I'd be very careful who i choose and I'd want to know everything they were doing.


10:28 am on Apr 17, 2010 (gmt 0)

10+ Year Member

thank you all for your replies, it is very comforting to hear your opinions and to feel that I'm on the right track, it's just that it is very frustrating to see spammers rank high!


12:08 pm on Apr 17, 2010 (gmt 0)

WebmasterWorld Senior Member 5+ Year Member Top Contributors Of The Month

If all the high-ranking sites are worthless spam, that's actually to your advantage, since it will make it easier for your site to climb past them. You should be thankful that Wikipedia isn't at the top.

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