Forum Moderators: Robert Charlton & goodroi
Today we're helping people get better search results by extending Personalized Search to signed-out users worldwide
That's a staggering statement meaning that every computer accessing Google is now being personalized, signed in or not, so any desktop, laptop or kiosk will start tracking everything everyone does and you won't be able to access the same search results from any two machines.
The possible impact to all is staggering.
- that adwords/search advertising has peaked and it is time to put it in to maintenance mode?
The marketing gurus have taken over Googleplex. Search and Adwords is identified as the Cash Cow. Mobile, Chrome, Android, and a Desktop cloud OS are problem children. Adsense is a dog. The main problem is they don't have a star. They are frantically going into random new product development mode in order to try and find a star.
I for one think that Google has been far more successful than it really should have been with search. A mixture of circumstances, good luck and a product that was a bit better than the opposition coupled with the front of altruistic, ad free, clean respectability gave them the push to become the number one search engine. Now they have become the #1 search brand and to be honest they probably think that brand loyalty and inertia will keep them going as #1 even if the product is not as good, filled with ads and basically a poor fit to what the founders set out to do.
SEO's, Webmasters, and site owners ... will start to work with services and places that do offer them the opportunity to acquire traffic.
It would be very difficult to replace traffic with anywhere like the volume we get from Google but I'm certainly searching for opportunities to reduce our reliance on Google. The biggest driver for us in this however is not a threat to organic rankings. For us increased competition on Adwords and the way that management of our budget has been wrenched from our hands by the Adwords algorithm is a much bigger threat. It is a little bit like having given in to the protection racketeers, we are now paying more and more but less customers are coming to our shop. One day we are going to say enough is enough and start to fight back against the racketeers. I sense that the day is not far away.
Cheers
Sid
I kind of see this as the same thing. Google will try to tailor the results based on our past preferences. If when I type in "trailers" and am always clicking on movie trailer links, well now G will give movie trailers more weight than say car trailers or truck trailers.
The day I search for and click on car trailer sites, then it shifts again.
They will always be chasing what happened in the past, and ASSUMING what I am looking for right now. It is hit or miss. I may have searched for car trailers yesterday, and today they gave those sites more weight, but now I am back searching for boat trailers, and all I'm getting is car and movie trailers.
I would rather see car, movie, truck and boat trailers all mixed in and let me realize I need to be more specific in what I am searching for. In the end it makes the search more useful to me if I am the one deciding ultimately what I am looking for... =)
You'll know when we customize results because a "View customizations" link will appear on the top right of the search results page.
[edited by: Brett_Tabke at 2:01 pm (utc) on Dec. 7, 2009]
[edit reason] fixed link [/edit]
And although this is certainly the best forum software I've ever seen :) in site search was never a strong point ..and seems to have disappeared ? ..
So most of us have got used to using gorg to search for old threads ..in the light of developments ..and in the interests of not giving away to gorg ( if they don't know already ) via their tracking who is behind the nicks here ..here are a couple of relevant threads from the past.
this one started by swa66 ..here [webmasterworld.com]
in which we found that inspite of ASA's protestations that even if you opt your adsense site out of "personalised search" ..that Gorg actually say that it will display adsense based on the visitors search history and not based upon your context ..
that appears to be what piatkow and others noticed earlier..
and this thread ..started by erku in which quotes from Gorgs own pages again showed that visitors will see adsense based on their ( now default history tracking) and not on your sites actual content ( as used to be the case with contextual old style adsense )..and that there is nothing that you can do about it ..
here [webmasterworld.com]
( of course gorg edit and change and remove so many things from their own pages to cover their tracks that they may have since removed the pages referenced ..or replaced them with images of kittens )
kittens are good for PR ..
</aside>
[Google Search] [Show Me Something New] [I'm Feeling Lucky]
When a person clicked that, they'd get clean results, with no influence whatsoever from cookies or from search history. Very simple implementation that threads the needle between Old Google and New Google.
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Why has Google abandoned the marketing optimization community?
Maybe they got tired of being characterized as a villainous secret society in a Dan Brown novel? :-)
Brett, you mentioned Facebook (albeit not in the context of personalized search). Facebook is an obvious competitor of Google as a point of entry to the Internet, and it offers an extremely personalized experience. Given the competition (or potential) competition from Facebook and its ilk, would why would anyone expect Google to pretend that it and its users are still living in 1998?
Earlier in this thread, someone commented on the fact that many people use search engines as a way to reach their favorite sites, not just for general search. Chrome, Google's new browser, actually encourages this by letting users enter either a URL or a search term on the browser's address line. Personalized search is a natural complement to this way of using a browser, and it fits in with a strategy of encouraging Web users to make Google their point of entry to the Internet.
If I go to gorg or any of it's properties ( youtube et al ) or arrive on any ones site that carries ads served by a gorg service ( doubleclick say) ..I will ( by the mere act of opening the page in my browser ) get a highly persistant tracking cookie which will affect what I see elsewhere ..and I will not be told either of the cookies existence ..nor of it's purpose ..
SJ you are attempting to defend the indefensible (and a practice by Gorg which is illegal in at least one continent already ..Europe )..why
But who is suffering anxiety - not the general public who are using goog for searches - so why should goog be concerned.
Unless the general public is concerned/anxious about either the search results they are seeing or the privacy implications of their history being tracked (and don't think they will have too much problem with the former, if a little with the latter) then Goog are not going to feel under any pressure to change direction.
After all, surely the SE's are there primarily for the general public, not for us webmasters to promote our sites, a fact that appears to be bypassing a number of people here
Google has maximized all they can do with advertising and search. They believe their future and next major battle is in Chrome, Android, and a Desktop cloud OS. They no longer have the resources and man power to dedicate to search. Thus, there is no need to perform maintenance on the community.
Very likely. Plus a certain hubris that they are unwoundable, because they are -market share wise- so far ahead of the competition.
Adsense is a dog.
Absolutely agree. Now that we have taken off Adsense entirely off our main site, I have been considering using one of the ad blockers for Firefox. I looked at the most popular one and was utterly shocked - 610,000+ downloads PER WEEK. Even if just 50% of the people actually install, configure and use the plugin, that's still a whopping 32 million users a year. Probably the activation rate is increasing rather than slowing down. No wonder that this is popular, because it took me just 10 minutes to block Doubleclick ads, Adsense ads, and Analytics tracking.
I guess that Google MUST see this somewhere in their reports. I would be very very surprised if they did not see any impact.
The main problem is they don't have a star. They are frantically going into random new product development mode in order to try and find a star.
We have discussed some time ago that Google's product management is not a stellar team.
(Please see messages # 3801460 and # 3801482 here [webmasterworld.com]. Plus message # 3806676 here [webmasterworld.com]. These messages are a year old but still valid.)
I agree that they are indeed "frantically going into random new product development mode in order to try and find a star". Well said.
After all, surely the SE's are there primarily for the general public, not for us webmasters to promote our sites, a fact that appears to be bypassing a number of people here
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1. How will new sites ever make it ?
Personalized search doesn't mean new sites (or sites unfamiliar to the searcher) will be rendered invisible in the SERPs.
2. How would one exploit this in there favor?
Create sites that are good enough to attract repeat visitors.
My sites are in areas that get most of there traffic from new visitors. People only need this information for certain periods of there life, then the event is over and they have no reason to return. I do have very low bounce rates, not sure if that will help or not.
I am guessing bounce rate would be a factor?
This is sounding somewhat like gorg is going to be somewhat of automated social booking site with "other" search results under the bookmarked slots? Am I off base?
I think the automated personalized results will confuse the average user, they will be like "why does this result keep coming up, when I am not looking for this?".
1. More website owners going to adwords, because they find their rock solid top 3 search position isn't rock solid any more.
2. Less accountability for firms offering SEO. People will still want their site highly ranked, they just won't get a reliable indication if it is. Fear of losing out will still make people pay for seo, they just won't be able to evaluate if they're getting value for money (other than by analysing traffic data I suppose)
3. Harder for webmasters to evaluate truly how well their own sites are doing. At the moment if I see a drop in traffic, I can just search and see where I am in serps - if I've dropped position, then I can easily see why traffic has dropped.
4. Google needs to treat people as adults. Let people search intentionally for what they want and not give them what you think they want.
5. The BIG question - how different will my neighbours results be from mine - just a few minor differences or completely different?
There's a global trend on the web and the trade off is functionality in exchange for less privacy. Look around. This trend isn't going away and if you think everyone feels like you just ask some young people (the future) at a university or high school how they feel.
More change = more opportunity. Innovate or become irrelevant.
More change = more opportunity.
and the trade off is functionality in exchange for less privacy
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is "functionality" ..
then you really don't understand the word.
And as for asking the young..most of them are the result of years of advertising and dumb down media influence to the point where they are now market fodder morons who believe that quality of life is measured by how many fashionable brands one owns and how their hair looks in their reflection in their iphone ..and how many videos they can get of themselves doing anything onto youtube ..of what use to civilisation would their replies be ?
And if you asked such a question in most universities or high schools ..you'd have to use damn short words ..or they wouldn't understand the question ..and you'd have to strip out the near 25% of "like " and "you know" and text speak from their replies before you could understand the answers ..
Which would in most cases boil down to "whatever" and that's from the ones who you could convince to take the iplayer buds out to listen to the question anyway ..
dictatorial Big Brother -- he never would have predicted that the citizenry would embrace it with open arms. Look how quickly people in urban areas have accepted a camera on every corner -- don't think that has gone unnoticed in the head offices of the multinationals.
Famous prophetic Star Wars quote:
"So this is how liberty dies -- to thunderous applause."
Or perhaps. more aptly it should be,
"So this is how liberty dies -- with a shrug and the murmuring of 'What can we do about it? It's the way of the world'"
when they came for mapping sites, I said nothing.
when they came for news providers, I said nothing.
when they came for yahoo mail, aol and hotmail, I said nothing.
when they came for hotel booking sites, travel guides and holiday cost comparison sites, I said nothing.
when they finally came for me, there was nobody left to speak for me.
remember the googlezon parody video from a few years back. Go and watch it again and see how scarily things are turning out. And the crowd either watches in silence or applauds.
I feel like I'm in a scene from Lord of the Flies. And it scares me $hitless.
I'm also kinda shocked that this site wont let you sign up with a @gmail.com address. I actually considered subscribing before I found that out, now I'll most likely be removing the RSS feed from my home page / cell phone.
The questions is not if I am paranoid - the question is: Am I paranoid enough?
I don't think I have ever seen so many paranoid people in my life.
Remember the data leak from AOL in 2006 - and how quickly the NY Times was able to mine the "anonymized" search data to find and interview one specific user? It's not the cookie, it's the vast amounts aggregated data that is the privacy concern.
As for gmail addresses, there are other mail providers that are not allowed for accounts here either, and those restrictions are long standing. They are in place to make it harder for spammers to bombard the boards, not to pass judgment on any given company.
"I hate Adwords", "I hate ads", "I hate Google ads", etc.
Maybe Google ads will disappear completely from the Google search pages on my computer? :} If the algo works correctly, they should disappear, shouldn't they. :
Remember the data leak from AOL in 2006 - and how quickly the NY Times was able to mine the "anonymized" search data to find and interview one specific user? It's not the cookie, it's the vast amounts aggregated data that is the privacy concern.
Great point Tedster. How many times do we search for "oursite.com" or "ourname.com" and then search for "I don't want anyone to know what I searched for" in the same 5 minute time frame?
Bad Google, bad!
[1] The World Wide Web is an integral part of many people's lives now, in all advanced societies, and a significant percentage of the population in all 1st world countries use it on a daily basis;
[2] Post 9/11, the intelligence agencies for the USA and many (if not most) of it's allies have every intention of gathering as much information about all of us as they possibly can, be it legally or illegally;
[3] Google is gathering a ton of info about everyone that uses its services (and of course, many other technologically advanced online companies are doing the same thing, but this forum is about Google so that's the focus);
[4] The intelligence agencies of the USA (and perhaps others as well) can almost certainly retrieve data from Google or anyone else anytime they want, for whatever reason they want, be it legally or illegally. After all, it's one big network and they have the biggest & most powerful guns;
[5] Privacy is a good thing, and speaking for myself, I would prefer more, not less.
Thus the concern. What we have seen over the past few years is a clear trend, and it's pointing to very detailed profiles being established for each & every one of us. Google is only one of many companies making this possible. But again, speaking for myself, I'd be happier to see Google gathering less information, not more -- simply respond to each individual search with the best possible SERPs, and leave it at that. They've made the decision however to gather MORE information, not less, and as whiteknight and others have said, it is troublesome to say the least. We all need to remember this -- once they gather the information, and once the profiles are established (be they right or wrong, fair or unfair), they can do whatever they want with it, and it will never go away.
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@daniel142005 ..you either dont understand the last 5 years threads here ..or haven't bothered to read them ..or just dont understand ..especially that the reason that you cant sign up with gmail or yahoo addies etc is to try keep out the drive by spammers using throwaways ..normally a webmaster ( ie ..one who actually has their own website ..would know this ) ..Nevertheless welcome to WebmasterWorld [webmasterworld.com]..PS most of us read solidly everyday for weeks before 1st posting ..so as to be really able to contribute to debates ..even when we disagree with many of the posters within the thread ..or not :)
I am not enthusiastic about a company that has bitten me in more ways than I can begin to count - and a company that has been a lot less transparent than Google. This entire thread exists because Google told us, UP FRONT, what they are doing. I do not trust Microsoft to be nearly as transparent as Google has been. Beautiful photography is not sufficient amends for their past sins.
Right, Bing is just the lesser evil, that's all. But Bing doesn't try to show their 'altruistic' and 'non-profit and all human' approach, they are who they are. Google, on the other hand, spends a lot of money on their image and PR to hide their agendas.
These days the only reliable sources of information are: private emails, online forums, and .. comments made by people on article or blog websites (provided they are not overmoderated). Comments below an article/blog are usually closer to the truth and more interesting than the article or blog post itself. Sometimes I even start reading comments first and article last to see how wrong or biased the article's author was ;).
[edited by: fargo1999 at 9:42 pm (utc) on Dec. 6, 2009]
The privacy problem boils down to: "I'm more than the sum of my past browsing/search history". There's something offensive about the idea of an algo trying to get inside my head. First of all, it can't. Second of all, I don't want it to try.
I've already had to fiddle and twiddle to get rid of geo-locating on my Google search bar. I'm an expat in Europe and, most of the time, I want to see what US or UK sites have to say about whatever subject not wade through a language which I've mastered but which is not my maternal tongue. As it is, I start the day on my laptop with an OS in the local language, browse around and then move on to my desktop with an OS in English where I run the same searches and can no longer find the same results. Enough with the aggravation.
As a Webmaster, I think it's too soon to tell how this will shake out but my sense is that it will be tougher for newer sites to get found. If Gorg's assumption is that all SEO is sleazy and nefarious and must be stamped out, I think that's a mistake. For a Mom & Pop site, a niche site, a hobby site driven by the passion to create good content, I think a knowledge of SEO can make a better and more focused site.
