Aargh! The 'and' operator

[calicochris]

OK, frustration level is hitting the roof. I work with a site where the major search term is the country name:
e.g.
'smoke and mirrors republic'

The major search terms that I am targeting for, are
'smoke and mirrors republic'
'smoke mirrors republic'
'smoke mirrors'

On all of these terms, on the longer phrases, e.g. 'smoke and mirrors republic restaurants', we are number 1 on the big G

But, on these two search terms, I get different results
'smoke and mirrors republic' - number 11 or thereabouts
'smoke mirrors republic' - number 4 consistently

It was all very hard work to get to where we are, as the space was hotly contested.

So, the last one is left .. what do I do with the 'and' to get from 11 to first page?

[calicochris]

I'm devastated! I'm going to cry :-( Does no-one on webmasterworld have a problem with Google saying that the 'and' operator is unnecessary, but the name of the search term has an 'and' inside it? And I get different results on using the 'and' and not using the 'and' in a search... Darn! Guess I'll have to figure it out all by myself.

[Leosghost]

depends on your IBL's ..if they dont have the and in ..and it helps tremendously if the same phrase is used also without linking to you on the page that is passing the link that uses the and in the link ..

hope thats clear ..

this sort of thing is much easier to do if you control the copy on a network of sites ..on widely diispersed Ip and DC's ( that SE's dont know you control ) ..then you can do A to K to Z to M to B type link bounce and fight the discarded operator bug that way ..

[Leosghost]

BTW ..be carefull what you wish for ..being on 11 ( top of page 2 )is better than being below the fold ( like 6 to 10 )on page 1 ..so make sure you have eneough push to be in the top 5 spots on page 1 with the "and" in ..or you may hurt yourself and actually reduce your traffic ..

[calicochris]

Thanks Leosghost - at least you've given me a starting point here. I'll look at all the inbound links that I can control. I think I follow you on the "A to K to Z to M to B type link bounce", but, to help this cruddy mind along a little, do you have another way to explain this? I think you mean inbound links on sites scattered over different data centers? Yes?

And above the fold, below the fold issues. This site was nowhere when I took it mid last year. So, we've come a long way. It is one of the most prestigious sites in its geographic location. So, now it is a matter of pure obstinance, dogged determination and misplaced pride in my own efforts, to deal with the last major search term. Perhaps shortsighted, but I'll worry about 'the fold' when I can dislodge myself from position 11 to anything above that.

[Leosghost]

I think you mean inbound links on sites scattered over different data centers? Yes?

yes ..the trick is to not interlink too heavily as to raise eyebrows between the sites that you are using for your inbounds ..you can link some ( as would be natural if they are touching upon the same subject one might expect the occasional link ) ..but keep it lightweight if the term has lots opf competition ..

A to B to C type link bouncing can work on terms that dont have much competition ..even site internal links only can bring a page to #1 if the search returns less than 100,000 results ..but the higher the number of results returned the more indirectly you have to have your IBL launch pad sites ..about the only thing you'd want them to have in common is to be on the same continent as the target ( geo targetting by SE's when calculation the value of IBL's ) ..and coming from pages in the same language as the target page ( note thats "pages" ..not sites ) sites can be multi lingual ( but better to host the individual language page groups in DC'S) in their target area ..lot of playing around initially ..but it pays off :)

[wanderingmind]

Not from my experience, Leosghost. I read a study which saw long back - and checked my entire site for rank 11 phrases and phrases that ranked in the first ten. For me, anywhere on the first ten was anyday better than ranking at 11.

[Leosghost]

Really ..you surprise me ..must be niche dependant ..when it was discussed here before most people got the same as my experience ..that was a while back though ( the discussion ) and I admit that where I have something sitting on 11 or 12 etc ..I tend to leave it at that ..maybe searchers are getting better disciplined? :)

I may experiment in one or two places .

you have percentages for the diff in visitors?

[calicochris]

I need to say a big thank-you to Leosghost! Fixing some of the incoming links and adding specifically the 'and' operator has dumped us right where we want to be ... OK, like you said, below the fold, but position 7 on the search term with the 'and' operator. Now I can refine some things and slowly get above the fold. Traffic is up, customer is ecstatic, I'm smiling like the cat that got the cream .. life is good Yeah!.

Now we just hope Google keeps loving us.