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Matt Cutts says that he was able to quickly identify all the sites owned by two webmasters - whose sites he was reviewing at PubCon.
For the second site, for which he identified the owned had 50 or so other sites, he said "the owner was using Private WhoIs". How could he identify that the guy was the owner of these 50 sites, in just a few seconds, then?
My question is:
-If i *dont* interlink my sites (which i dont)
-If i do a private domain registration with DomainsByProxy so Google cant see who owns the domain in the WhoIs, and...
-If i don't put my name or company info on the site
....how can Google tell you own the sites? How how! ;-) I didnt think they could. And still don't.
Maybe im missing something
joined:Dec 1, 2003
Would Google care about this?
One more thing, Matt pushed every one or expressed clearly that G likes a single domain instead of cluster of unique services hosted on different domains. He made a fair point that any one can have yorubarndxyzservice which may not grab by the brand yet. However I personally feel they are emphasizing on this due to their inability to distinguish such domains or site via automated algorithm and may be they are focusing on this right now. I missed to ask him their but why he didn’t commented on ysearchblog.com or ysmblog.com i.e. multiple domains for different services by their fellow search engine.
I have a personal relationship with my girlfriend. It does not become a contractual relationship till we are married.
OK BigDave, explain PALIMONY and COMMON LAW MARRAIGE...
That's what I thought!
I use a certain brand of eCommerce software.
Every other customer uses the same software and the basic template is the same in +50% of the stores.
There are 50,000 of these stores (I'm told).
The sites running the software are primarily located on servers in one datacenter.
The "content" (the meat) of the sites are all different and "content rich", (unique content, descriptions, titles, urls, images, etc).
My point: they are not banned or profiled or grouped or otherwise dropped in ranking (many of the stores are #1 for their keywords)...
The implications of multiple / similar sites should be made clearer here.
I can see where sites would get rounded up and banned if they offended G's TOS or algo in the first place, (e.g. the sites just don't have content to survive on their own regardless of interlinking)...
Favorites: script based sites that grab the referral query string from G and turns it into;
Welcome to _____________ World!
The best __________ on the 'net
Cheap Wholesale _____________s
Click Here for More _________s
you know the type of sites..
These "webmasters" run (50) or more MFA sites and pull this crap across (50) domains.
Hunting down and banning them should be a priority for G as it pollutes the serps.
Pure generated crapola ---- and worse, some advertiser is paying for what is basically the only way to get off one of these sites --- you need to close the window or click an ad, (everything else falls back into the scipt spammer's sites and pages).
Is this what we are talking about?
If you read Google's guidelines for webmasters, you'll see they advise to build your sites as if search engines don't exist.
If search engines didn't exist, I submit we would all be doing a lot more crosslinking, network building, etc.
But - there there IS Search engines. And that's the exact reason why websites more or less look like the old hypertext files created back at CERN in the stone-ages of the internet. Because the search engines love them? No, because that's all they can handle in scale. The web is shaping around search engines, and everybody seems to be happy with it.
[edited by: the_nerd at 9:04 am (utc) on Dec. 5, 2006]
httpwebwitch, I meant that as a joke, honestly
I do think Google profiles vigorously. It's not that I have a penchant for conspiracies; when I know something's possible, I assume they will do it because it's 1) not illegal and 2) smart
I assume my actions are being watched (via toolbar) and all my links are being followed. I know that if I had the data that Google (potentially) has, I could make reasonable assumptions of allegiances between sites, and I'd definitely be able to identify the webmasters. We don't click like other people click
For example. I had my Google toolbar on. I reloaded "beta.example.com" a thousand times in October. Then "www.example.com" started getting a lot of hits from all over. Then I stopped going there and started loading "beta.anothersite.com" a lot in November. What would you guess my profession is?
joined:Dec 9, 2001
The search engines are learning not to be so impressed by self-generated link popularity as they were a couple of years ago.
It's as if they yawn and say, "We'll take another look when you've got some link endorsement from the REAL web, not just your own network."
Let's say you have a domain that sits on page 1 for a certain phrase with 100 inbounds that you gave yourself. No one had to be attracted to your content and link to it because they liked it so much. It's there because you wanted it there. Compare that to the site that sits right below you on the same page for the same phrase. It has 30 inbounds all from different sites, perhaps with less favorable anchor text and less pagerank being passed, but all having been given freely, all constituting a democratic vote.
Which site really deserves to be there? I think google, in theory, knows. They just haven't gotten to the point where they can sufficiently "weed". But, given time, perhaps they will.
In principle, I don't have a problem with multiple sites in the same niche. But I do have a problem with multiple sites being clones of each other and offering nothing new to the web user. As someone said, this only pollutes the serps. I would think that google views it this way and will get around to it.
I also have a problem with site operators interlinking their sites to artificially boost their rankings in defiance of google's principals, due to the example I cited above.
Is it ok to have multiple sites in the same niche? I hope so. Is it ok to interlink them? I suppose it might be as long you do this in a fashion that seems logical for users. However, I'd be very careful about doing this and, as someone told me recently, I'd be extra careful with my core sites.
Ideally, if you think about, if you have multiple sites, you shouldn't interlink any of them. They should all stand or fall on their own.
Can anyone explain to me what could be wrong with this kind of (in my eyes )common practive for developing webmasters , since it occurs so naturally. Or why it could be a disadvantage of G knowing this behavior
nothing until that mo is used by 80% spammers. Then it beomes the subject of profile filtering. Which side of the filter you come out depends on where the balancing trust factors hit and if you are seen as trusted.
That seems to be where we are today.
I interlink them because they are in my control and it saves me a lot of begging for backlinks with webmasters i don't know and are really in no hurry or need to exchange links with me.
Of course we all do it. But some of us are smarter and less greedy than others.
I don't interlink all my sites. That is just being greedy. When I put up a new site, a link to it goes into one and only one of my "other sites" lists.
It only goes into this list on an appropriate site. If I had a site about monster trucks rallies, I don't think I would use that one to link to a new site about identifying mountain wildflowers.
This first link is enough to get the indexing process started, and would not raise any eyebrows in any of the search engines.
Once I get a few links from an outside source, I might add another link from one of my sites.
After the sites have been up a while, I will give myself deep links much more freely, but only in appropriate situations.
If you have a Christmas Crafts website that contains recipes for your favorite Christmas cookies, there is nothing wrong with linking to the recipes from your blog on the days that you make the cookies. But make sure that it is a real blog, not just one that you set up to give yourself links.
If you go overboard on crosslinking, don't complain if they are all discounted and you no longer have enough links to keep your site in the index.
But - there there IS Search engines. And that's the exact reason why websites more or less look like the old hypertext files created back at CERN in the stone-ages of the internet. Because the search engines love them? No, because that's all they can handle in scale.
In my 4 years of running my e-commerce websites i never got one link from somebody for free or because my content was interesting, like i said why should they, most of the products i sell are products being sold by a dozen websites each of them have their problems with link development.
Yes of course if you'd write a valuable article you would get links because you would have new and interesting content, but in case you sell products, you would definately have a hard time finding links.
Most of my competition is doing this by means of affiliate programs and they pay a lot for this convenience. (and it surely helps them in the rankings, maybe g should take a look into this and create a profile for those website!)
Any way i guess, in my case it could be helpfull if google had a profile of me and has marked it as trusted , then they know i am not a spammer and maybe it could save my websites one day!
I have e-commerce sites too. And like you, I try to figure ways to get these ranked better. I have some suggestions, and some of these were hard for some of my clients to swallow...
Instead of concentrating on selling, concentrate on knowing. What I mean by this is, take one of your sites and try to take the products (or product) and research the #$#%^&U out of it. After researching, write a few articles on the product(s). History, how they are made, where they are made, etc., etc. Become an authority on that product. Look at the site and make it more about the product and less about how to buy the product.
Case in point...
I had a client that sold, let's say, mattresses. He did not manufacture these, he just sold them. He did have a brick and mortar store (that always helps - do not depend on G for your business) and he was bummed that he ranked in the 700's on G. He asked if I could help. I took his site and concentrated on turning it into an authority site. Now, I know nothing about mattresses, but this guy sure did, so I depended on him for a lot of information. I had him write articles and we turned these into pages - how mattresses are made, best materials used, etc. I even talked this guy into starting a directory and letting everyone add a link there - good for the customers. Even his competitors added links (this was one part that he had a hard time swallowing). Next, we brainstormed and came up with an idea. We called it "Dr. Mattress." (corny, I know, and he was skeptical about this). Anyway, We built kind of a forum where the general public could ask questions and he would post answers. It took quite a while to get anyone to post anything, but once it got rolling, it was suprising how many poeple had questions. We then invited competitors to join in to give their expertise too. Very few did, at first, but once the site started garnishing more and more users, a lot of them felt they had no choice but to join in. Other related sites started emailing to be included in the directory, others wanted to be included in the forum. We even let the competition add links to their sites in their signature files. (He REALLY had a hard time swallowing that one!) ;-)
Now I am not tooting my horn here, but the bottom line was we took a basic e-commerce site and changed it into something totally different. The site is now on page 1 of G, it is selling more mattresses then it ever had, the client is happy, and I think it even helped the competition. It's hard to get people to think this way, but being an authority seems to work much better then being e-commerce. You just have to get the 'ol brain cells working and come up with ideas to get the site out there. This would be next to impossible to do if you sold everything, but if you pick a line, concentrate on just that line, and brainstorm to get people to look at what you are doing, that is the key, I believe. It makes your site a bit better then the others and I think the engines and people notice that.
Also would like to say that this is not something that happens overnight. It took us over a year to come up with these ideas, implement them and see good results. The first step, though, is to take a look at what you got, try to get the 'ol brain to look at it a little different, then try to implement those thoughts. Works for me!
Just my 2 cents worth.
Since i do have about 30.000 products to advertise i cannot work out the review idea because it really takes a lot of time.( And some of my competition also thought of that, they scrape the products manufacturers website just for additional information).
I now have optimized every product page for the search engines and it gives me some good results.
I already tried the forum idea but like you already said, this takes a lot of patience and dedication to get things going. We're still working on that.
But being an authority on some subject will help indeed. We're still working on that.
The directory and link exchange idea was indeed a succes for me.
At one moment i was even giving away domainnames and (semi)developed websites for free...can you believe that even that sometimes was a troublesome task. I am giving away free hosting, bandwith , e-commerce website, custom design , yes even a (sub)domain with e-mail, at last i gave them even initial starter traffic to get things rolling, only for a lousy backlink.
Since i have been working on this e-commerce site for 4 years now, i have started about 15 succesfull projects in different areas of experise and all together they have helped my e-commerce site quite a bit.
The benefit is that these projects do link back to my main e-commerce site. My future goal is to have about 100 successfull projects that link to my e-commerce website. Therefore it's very important to me that this will be alowed by google or that they keep a profile of me(& my websites) being trustworthy.
Your comments are more than "Just my 2 cents worth".
They are worth a million bucks.
If everyone in this forum listened to what you just wrote, and acted upon it, this forum would become a ghost town with the occassional tumbleweed.
** I hope everyone reading this post that missed webdude's post above goes back and reads that post -> webdude's post contains all you will ever need to be a success on the internet, in whatever field you are in.
Webdude's post trumps everything else written in this forum. (notwithstanding duplicate content issues...)
Fantastic post really and so helpful to the webmaster community.
But as hakanhaknuz said, it's almost impossible to right your own reviews about 30.000 products (150.000 widgets in my case).
I am sorry to get off-topic here but I thought I should share some of my thoughts.
I remember starting a thread about that issue (Listing thousands of widgets with same titles, descriptions, etc.. that appear on other sites but organazid differently on my site Vs. The impossible "write your own descriptions technique when you have tens or even hundreds of thousands of widgets).
I wrote this post before publishing my site asking for webmaster thoughts about the issue, but Tedster and I myself found the post very controversial and we agreed to delete it in order not to start another flame war.
The same apply to IBLs. E-Commerce sites or sites that list widgets find it extremely hard to acquire links, therefore they sometimes has to find other ways to get IBLs like interlinking websites together (in a smart way!) not to mention buying text links (a big no no imo).
Of course, there are many brainstorming ideas that you can use to avoid looking like a copycat, scraper, you name it, etc.. that webdude mentioned some.
My advice is to think google. Repesenting informations that already exist on the web in a more organized way and with some added value. Check answers.com i.e.
Sorry again to get off-topic and my apology for the long post :)
The problem with that advice is that 99.9% of the people that hear it start thinking about reasons why they can't implement that advice rather than how can they start implementing some of that advice. You all think its a gem, but you can't do it. Then you forget about it in a few day. Then the next time you see it, you think its wonderful, but you can't do it....
Maybe you can't write reviews for 30,000 different items. Well it sucks to be you. Start by writing one that you want to concentrate on. Then write another.
Leave your 30,000 item store up, and start a new one that only sells items AFTER you have written up additional information on it. See how things go.
The problem you have is that with almost any item in your inventory, someone else with a smaller store has taken the time to write the extra content, and they are the ones that deserve the extra traffic.
Start doing something about ranking on some of your items.
Pay attention to the rest of his suggestions as well. He had a lot of them and they are all good. If you can't do one right now, do another. Obviously webdude was paying attention along the way, he let the good advice settle in, and figured out how to actually do it, instead of coming up with reasons why he couldn't.
Is it not just possible that they used a reverse IP program?
I use this all the time to suss out other websites individuals are running. Works with most sites that are not too small and hosted on shared servers. I also find it usefull to check the surrounding IP's around the originals website as some indivuals host websites over a few servers.
I actually used this technique to track down a dodgy publishing company that owed my girlfriend several hundred dollars. Though they didn’t have there contact details on their main book publishing page, I was able to determine what other pages they ran and could find their contact details through them.
yeah sorry I skipped a good junk of everyone’s response but I would like to offer a suggestion
Is it not just possible that they used a reverse IP program?
@leonidas33... I think some of the posts you skipped were the ones that brought up that idea already. ;)
I believe that once a person who has toolbar installed on his PC login to his adsense/adwords/gmail account then his toolbar ID is linked with his google account ID. From then on google has a list of which sites are being accessed by that webmaster and that list is good enough to make an ownership profile for all the domains irrespective of registrars and registries.
I know of at least 200 domains and several thousands of subdomains (of these domains) in a situation where example.com is hosted on different IP than sub.example.com... All these run an identical script, featuring the same sort of products, but with slightly different text on each one... I think this is done by scrapping several related v1agra sites, however I didn't go that far in my research...
I did submit a detailed spam report to google, listing all ips and offending sites.
In September most of those were dropped from the index and those with pagerank of 4 and 5 were zero...
2 months later, they are all in there again! So whatever MC says, I still don't see a good solution on this problem from google's perspective.
Those domains have different whois records, with addresses, telephone numbers and owners all different. However, each IP has tens and even thousands in some cases of similar spammy domains.
I would like to ask a very simple question... You can do a reverse-ip check to find top-level domains hosted on a single IP... How can you find out how many subdomains are hosted on a single IP?
I can't... and I don't see how Google can do this.
What is really annoying is that I presented evidence linking the attacks to a big corporate website with an outline of what they seek to accomplish by targetting me... However those sites never lost anything in terms of Google... Don't say it is intentional, but one is left to wonder...
Who is the first person to type a domain name for a brand new site in the browser? Usually the owner/webmaster is the first one to do that. What if that webmaster has Google toolbar installed in his browser? Then the google will be able to instantly link the webmaster with the new site.
This can be true, but not always. We are a web development company, who book a domain name, provide the hosting, launch the website, do the SEO and some time even keep adsense / adwords on it. We might have hit the domain name lot many times then our clients and my client is very less liekly to use any of the G-services.
We have clients from all over the world and surely have the G-toolbars and G-services on our machines. So unless there is some human involvement, the automated data collection can awlays have bugs in it.