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SAN FRANCISCO, April 12 (Reuters) - A California state senator on Monday said she was drafting legislation to block Google Inc (News - Websites) .'s free e-mail service 'Gmail' because it would place advertising in personal messages after searching them for key words."
"It's like having a massive billboard in the middle of your home...."
LOL! Talk about hyperbole.
But this just underscores what a poor job G has done of introducing and explaining Gmail. The April-Fool-or-not announcement was brilliant for the buzz it created, but it's been all downhill since then. G needs to start acting instead of waiting for things like this and then reacting.
Hmmm, interesting ;)
- It is still in beta testing and used by a limited quantity of people?
- Did anyone will be forced to use GMail?
- Did any web based services where you stored data tell you they will erase all the backup tape data and they use multiple rewriting on deleted data to be sure the all the trace are erase?
- Did other service of ad serving will never use content to serve ad?
- Did anyone investigate on the Andy Beal post of 19 february about Yahoo Privacy flagrant violation?
- Did any senator write a drafting legislation about Hotmail glitch who let expose everybody email account to everyone?
- Did anyone know what Carnivore and Echelon grab about your email account?
Silly
- Did anyone will be forced to use GMail?
- Did other service of ad serving will never use content to serve ad?
That's what it all comes down to: will Y and MSN do the same? "content ads" in emails might be just the beginning, once people are getting used to it they might accept even more.
Several european countries prohibit to mix private communications with advertisements because they consider it as unethical - some here also called it evil.
But evil? Oh my goodness. I must say, I'm personally concerned when people start equating advertising issues with "evil." Murderous tyrants are evil. Hit and run drivers, quite possibly evil. Underfunding schools, definitely evil. But putting ads next to email? Please, I beg of you, despite understandable concerns, let's keep all of this in perspective in the context of our complex world.
I am really surprised that so many members of WebmasterWorld like the idea of breaking this barrier, there is simply no need for it (besides the need for google to use internet users as a tool to make additional revenue)
the average user already sees far to many ads - if you wanna get a lot of storage for your email get a bigger drive, 1G costs like $1 to $2 and you don't have to sell your soul.
...the need for google to use internet users as a tool to make additional revenue
Not just Google.
[just following instructions]
And in the meantime... I really wish Google had done a better, much more proactive job of PR. Did they give test accounts to prominent journalists? Did they fly out to visit with WSJ's influential Walt Mossberg and have him play with the service? Did they have key CEOs (Jeff Bezos, Carly Fiorina, etc.) take Gmail for a whirl? Clearly not. :(
Right now, I think so much of the paranoia, fear, and concern is stemming from uncertainty and to a great extent a lack of awareness of how the service works. And that's not surprising!
Google has really dropped the PR ball on this one :¦
* * *
Er... now you can call me a bi-polar Google patsy? :D
It would surprise me if most free email providers don't keep at least some personal information. Most of these companies aren't providing free email at the goodness of their heart. Giving some information about yourself is part of the bargain.
I couldn't myself using there service because I am not a big fan of free email. That said I don't think that lawmakers should be preventing other people from using Gmail provided that they are upfront with their customers about their privacy practices. This sounds better than most free email since Google isn't attaching adds to your outgoing emails. That has to be more annoying that anything that has been proposed with Gmail.
If you don't like GMail policies, don't create an account, don't send mail to one, and don't reply to someone who sent you mail from one. Blocking hosts and mail servers certainly isn't anything new, we've all been doing it for years. If you really have that much of a problem with it, just STAY OUT OT IT. It's not your right or obligation to tell anyone else whether they can use the service or not.
It's pretty stupid try to stop the service from launching just because YOU don't agree with their policy. Personally, I look forward to using their service. I only use free email accounts for signing up for websites so I don't have to give out my "real" one and get spammed. Problem is I have to log in to Yahoo every 2 - 3 days and delete everything to make room.
Google will fix that problem for me, plus they'll be able to show me ads for sites that have similar content as to what I'm already signing up for.
This is a GOOD thing - why are webmasters and governments are trying to stop it? Mind your own freakin business - if you don't like it, don't sign up. Don't ruin it for me and others who are happily waiting for this service to become available.
[edited by: WebGuerrilla at 6:25 pm (utc) on April 13, 2004]
[edit reason] Removed political commentary [/edit]
Mind your own freakin business - if you don't like it, don't sign up. Don't ruin it for me and others who are happily waiting for this service to become available.
That's pretty much how I feel too. only not quite as angry.
One good thing that may come out of this would be if privacy is taken more seriously by everyone. Google certainly shouldn't be the only company held to these types of standards.
There is nothing good that could come of it. We already have laws that force full disclosure. If someone is too lazy/stupid to read the terms of use before signing up (or installing software) then that's their own fault.
If Google wanted to store every e-mail message for eternity and pay minimum wage workers to do nothing but read them and memorize them and use the information to boost their own sales, they should have that RIGHT - as long as they're honest about it. Which they have been.
It's THEIR network, THEIR drive space/memory, THEIR bandwidth, and they're giving you a freebie in exchange for letting them use whatever data you receive there in a manner consistent with what was disclosed in their policy. Either you like their terms or you don't - either you sign up or you don't. You have that choice ... no one is forcing you to use GMail or interact with users who do.
Frankly, if you want privacy use your own mail client and only send encrypted e-mails. Privacy is YOUR responsibility.
I'm all for legislation that forces companies to DISCLOSE their privacy practices. But I'm not at all for legislation that forces privacy itself - that's my decision to make.
I agree with you 100%. But now, maybe people will pay more attention to TOS and privacy issues- that's all.
The tos is not applicable. It isn't about signing up, it is about those that didn't sign up that get used in the process without their permission.
Isn't that the case with everything though? When you send someone an e-mail, you have no idea who they are going to forward it to or who may be standing over their shoulder looking at it.
If your concern is for the non-Gmail user who doesn't know anything about GMail's privacy and is sending a message to a GMail user, then your concern is misplaced. What a user does with a message after you've sent it to them is beyond your control - whether it's being read by a machine or forwarded by the recipient. Once that message leaves your network, you have no idea who is looking at it anyway.
The GMail user who signed up and read the terms like they're supposed to would know the level of privacy they can expect to receive and they're OK with it. Since they gave you their e-mail address, they're affirming that THEY are OK with Google "reading" whatever you send them.
Besides, I feel that I need to remind people that we're talking about a computer scanning the messages for the sole purpose of content targeting. It's not like it's actually a person there reading your private e-mail and writing down any paswords you receive there.
Sounds like this issue might be the specific reason why G hasn't been on the PR bandwagon. They probably were hoping to quietly get a decent sized user base and then worry about these pesky privacy details after they had happy customers.
Before I got to the voicemail though, I had to listen to one ad about "Great gift ideas on eBay" and another for the "Discount Party Supply Depot."
No big deal.
I'm all for legislation that forces companies to DISCLOSE their privacy practices. But I'm not at all for legislation that forces privacy itself - that's my decision to make.
I don't think it should apply to companies that have a proven monopoly. I also believe there should be intervention in cases involving required, necessary, or youth-related services (in which they cannot be expected to offer informed consent, for instance).
But in this case, we're talking about an optional, non-essential service from a non-Monopoly. I completely agreet that in cases like this, DISCLOSURE is really the key. What gets my goat is when scum companies like Gator, er, I mean Claria attempt to basically hide their spyware behind legalese that folks are not expected to read.
Brett brings up the most important point of all here. Unless the ToS pop up for everyone who's about to send an e-mail to a gmail account, then they're doing this to people without their consent. It'll be interesting to see how this works through.
Google's computers parse, display, store, and backup received mail.
Same with AOL, Earthlink, Comcast, and every other ISP.
And until those services display a 'warning,' there are absolutely zero reasons why Google should do so.
"Ah, but Google is offering more storage so there'll be more mail on the service for law enforcement officers to grab!"
So? Lots of people pay for extra storage on Yahoo and Hotmail. Many people have near-unlimited storage on their own domains. Others download all their mail onto their huge hard drives (which can be confiscated by legal authorities).
Again, I note: for people sending e-mail, there are no differences between Gmail and any other service.
[edited by: ThatAdamGuy at 7:38 pm (utc) on April 13, 2004]
1. When it's my ad showing in the emails my competitor sends out, gmail is a fabulous service.
2. When it's my competitor's ad showing in my emails, this is horrible and has to be stopped.
3. There is tremendous potential for abuse by Google. Even if you trust the current Google administration, eventually someone else will be running things and they may not be trustworthy. But then again, your private data is already in the wrong hands. (Imagine the "sensitive" info msn or yahoo has if they want to read personal emails).
4. Google didn't let me join the beta testing. This is awful. GMail must be stopped.
5. Google let me in on their beta testing. They are good guys. We need to support them.
6. As bad (or good) as all of the above is, if Gmail "solves" spam, the vast majority of us will use it and be thrilled about it.
7. It's amazing how quickly our government managed to attack Gmail, even before it's released, and how paltry their efforts after a decade, to eliminate spam. If you want to be cynical, you can send her a letter asking if what's bothering her is that GMail is taking care of spam and some of her constituents benefit from spam? (Just kidding. Maybe.)
Maybe people are uncomfortable with someone else (besides Big Brother), having a motivation for reading/scanning mass amounts of email for monetary gain. ...yeah I know about spam screening too.
That's where the law protects us, folks ... the fact that they have to disclose it plain as day. If you choose to ignore it, it's your own stupidity. I mean really, it's RIGHT THERE all laid out in front of you. Just because people choose to ignore the terms doesn't mean you should task developers with outlining specific portions that SOME PEOPLE believe infringes on privacy.
Personally I don't consider Google's message scan an invasion of privacy at all. It's not archiving it, it's not selling it, it's just delivering content-targeted ads to me in exchange for me using their free service. Whether its an invasion of privacy or not is *MY* decision to make when it comes to my e-mail - not yours, not the government's.
And it still doesn't change the fact that if you send e-mail to ANYONE on ANY host, it's out of your control as soon as it leaves your Outbox.
The first file he sent me required a Divx codec to play. So I went to the site, downloaded the software, and started to install it. When I read the terms of use (note: I READ THE TERMS OF USE) I noticed that the installation included GAIN. I canceled the installation and told my friend to send me the video file in a different format.
Had I skipped over the terms of use, I would have installed software that I consider spyware on my system. It would have been MY OWN stupid fault - not the manufacturer of the software, not the site I downloaded it from, and not my friend's for sending me a file that required that download. By reading the terms of use I prevented the installation of spyware. Go me.
My point is that people need to pay attention to what they're doing and stop expecting someone else to hold their hand and pad everything for them. If you walk out into traffic and get hit by a bus, would you say that there should have been a sign there notifying you that a bus could potentially drive by and hit you? Of course not - that's retarded. And so is this whole Gmail argument.
While I understand what Brett is saying about people who don't know GMail's policies being unwilling participants, everything I've said still applies:
(1) That scenario isn't what most of the complainers have been whining about, and
(2) When an e-mail leaves your own network, you have no control over it - period. In any case, it's more likely that the recipient of your message will FORWARD IT SOMEWHERE or allow someone standing behind them to see it than someone from Google reading your e-mail.
Here's a bang-your-head-in-frustration passage:
She said one concern she has about Gmail is that people sharing an e-mail account, such as a parent and child or two spouses, might infer information from the ads. "What if my daughter gets onto the account and wonders why mom is starting to get e-mail on this issue?" she asked. "If we're talking about medical issues, there's lots of sensitive information out there."
1) Why would a parent and a child share an email account?!
2) Google EXPRESSLY forbids children (anyone under the age of 13) to use Gmail.
3) Since users are not profiled and no targeting information is maintained from email to email, even if a Mom shared an account with her daughter, her daughter's "Hey, how was school, Suzy?!" email will show different ads than her Mom's health-related mail.
4) The implication that Gmail will actually send separate emails with ads is completely false.
"I believe you are embarking on a disaster of enormous proportions, for yourself, and for all of your customers," State Sen. Liz Figueroa said in a letter to the Mountain View, Calif., company.
[edited by: ThatAdamGuy at 8:14 pm (utc) on April 13, 2004]
Think of the opportunities here folks.
Actually, what Google should do is to pay the recipient for having an ad flashed at them. Maybe one cent for an ad at the end of the message, two cents at the top, five cents for a political ad ... well, you get the idea, and a bonus if the recipient clicks on it.
Better yet, let the recipient bid on what they'll get paid for getting flashed with an email ad.
Line everyone's pockets and watch how quick the whining stops.
Here's what I don't like...
Writing you an email, and having no idea what will be hyperlinked and to whom by the time it hits your inbox.
In the months ahead, after yahoo and msn follow suit, and after the likes of gator start offering free email, what makes you think that you'll be able to know the difference between hyperlinks I sent you and hyperlinks that were inserted into my email without my permission?
What assurances are there that an "ad" won't look like it's me sending you a link? That might not be how it looks now, but how do we know it won't look like that later?
If I've ever seen a slippery slope that people are missing, this has to be it. Even assurances that my fears are unfounded or committments that it won't turn out that way would be unconvincing to me.
I think that barrier has been broken a looooong time ago. It just shows more with Google, that's all. Google became the face of that broken barrier, and that was their only mistake.
If you want 1GB of storage, they will have to pay for it somehow. You agree to it, or you don't. It is as simple as that. I think the licence that M$ makes you agree to when you install any of their products is far more invasive, and threatening to privacy than anything Gmail will ever be.
